Chaos in USA

[boing]

John,
A large proportion of the guns are procured through straw purchases which is when a legal purchaser buys the firearm with the intent of allowing its use by someone else. Typically this would be the girlfriend of a criminal buying the gun. The gun is then carried by the girlfriend until it is needed when it is handed to the criminal, used, and then returned to the girlfriend. She disappears quickly with the gun leaving the criminal to say "What gun, I don't have no gun!". Very common in gang shootings.

The point being the girlfriend can purchase legally but the criminal would be unable to do so. Oftentimes the purchaser is forced to make the purchase under threat or it may be a condition of gang initiation. This is a difficult practice to stop because the purchaser can pass background checks and they simply ignore the question on the form about intended de-facto ownership.

.

[llondel]

I fundamentally disagree with the approach.
When one is facing a tiger, it makes no sense to turn your back on it and tread on an ant.

America, and every other country, needs to sort out organised crime, gangs, and mental health.

And if you look at the bits of America that largely don't have those problems, they also don't have a gun problem.

Very US - lots of health problems get treated with drugs as a quick fix, rather than changing lifestyle to either solve or prevent the problem.

The NRA knows this, which is why at the gun convention, one is not allowed to carry guns in the building. They know full well the sort of nutters that are out there and really shouldn't be packing heat.

Switzerland has national service and I once read that everyone who's been through it is issued with a gun just in case it's needed. They don't have crazy people shooting up schools and hospitals and parties.

[Dushan]

Switzerland has national service and I once read that everyone who's been through it is issued with a gun just in case it's needed. They don't have crazy people shooting up schools and hospitals and parties.

Exactly! They don't have the nutters trying to shoot schools and such because they know that everyone and their grandfather have a military rifle ready to confront them.

Where do our nutters go to shoot people? Schools, theaters, supermarkets, churches. All the places with big "No guns inside" signs.
The solution is to arm and train everyone and the problem goes away.

[boing]

Here are two important questions of Form 4473 that cannot be verified by the background check. Quite obviously question "e" is not information that is available to authorities so the question is basically pointless for gun sale purposes. Question "f" relates to personal information that is probably not available to the checking authorities since it is in a "controlled" system.

These and the other questions on the form are routinely answered incorrectly but no enforcement action is ever taken by the police or other authority. There should be, at least, a sampling of completed forms subject to deeper investigation with the threatened punishment carried out to its full extent for lying on the form.

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized
for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

.

[llondel]

Here are two important questions of Form 4473 that cannot be verified by the background check. Quite obviously question "e" is not information that is available to authorities so the question is basically pointless for gun sale purposes. Question "f" relates to personal information that is probably not available to the checking authorities since it is in a "controlled" system.

These and the other questions on the form are routinely answered incorrectly but no enforcement action is ever taken by the police or other authority. There should be, at least, a sampling of completed forms subject to deeper investigation with the threatened punishment carried out to its full extent for lying on the form.

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized
for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

.

A lot of questions asked on US forms are not to catch you up front, they're to make sure they can nail you afterwards for lying on the form even if you get off the main charge. They only got Al Capone for tax evasion, not organised crime, so the principle of casting a wide net ha been there a long while.

[Dushan]

f. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

All they have to do is come to this forum and harvest the names.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

As part of a few computer systems I've programmed for dealing with admin, both in the RAF and in education, government and corporate, I would put paper forms in an electronic format. I would then ask what all the data was used for, so I could determine the most useful format and transfer methods. I would say about 5% of the information gathered was no longer used by anyone, 5% had never been used, 10% was supposed to be used but was stored in a way that made it impossible to use practically, and 20% had already been gathered on another form. About 3% of the data gathered elsewhere was entered differently the next time, and none of the existing systems checked for that. Furthermore, where a limited choice was given (e.g. drop-down box), about 5% of selections were incorrect because the actual data wasn't on the list.
And the upshot of the computer data systems being incorrect was that people either used horrendously inefficient manual systems, or didn't bother using the data.
For the last 15 years, I have given up trying to tell the truth when the forms make that impossible, and just told them whatever I think will cause no further checks. No one has ever questioned those entries, in any country, commercial or government. Some of them were obviously impossible.

And the worst systems I've ever encountered, manual or computer, were those of the US Government. That's ignoring corruption, which would promote the Middle East to top spot. I particularly don't like it when two different requirements exist, one requiring one to do something and the other banning you from doing it. I must give a special shout-out to Air Canada, who have about the highest rate currently where it is simply impossible to do what they themselves are asking one to do, which includes the phone helpline as well as the internet. "Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy"

I've always worked hard to complete Canadian Government forms correctly, and I'm pleased to report I've always achieved success first go, unlike anywhere else. The problem in Canada is that no level of Government adequately staffs any changes that are made, so a huge backlog rapidly builds up, then enough staff are hired to only very slowly fix the backlog. This has occasionally worked to my advantage. About 6 months into a backlog problem, the politicians start yelling for data to show they are doing something, so the administrators throw the queuing system out the window and just grab all the 'easy' forms, and do those to get the Cases Processed numbers up. I have twice benefited from being an 'easy' form.

[Dushan]

Fox3, you are forgetting the data that is needed but not collected on forms. When one asks about it, during development, the routine answer is "not in scope" or "will be handled in phase 2.0".

[llondel]

I used to think that it would be great if government was efficient enough that once I proved who I was, they could just call up most of the stuff and I wouldn't need to fill it all in again. Now I value the fact that departments don't easily talk to each other, may hold conflicting information and generally are not in a position to easily track someone. We don't need that level of surveillance society. This is what I remind myself every time I have to go fill in yet another form. I've been known to leave stuff blank if I don't think they need it (and I'm not in a rush to get them to provide me with something) so they can justify why they need that information for what they're currently doing.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Dushan - I wasn't forgetting missing data, it was just that the improvement of the system is a separate question, and wasn't within my remit.

In general, governments make a point of not collecting data that they think will show them in a bad light. So, those answers are in fact excuses. They have no intention whatsoever of including it.
Another trick is to manipulate the raw data until it shows what they want, such as with inflation by including hedonistic adjustments.
A further trick is to change the scoring system so that the results data shows what they want, such as with exam grades. Every kid graduates if the lowest mark allowed is 80%, even if the kid never comes to class.

[prospector]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/gei ... lement-car

The woman said she contracted Human papillomavirus (HPV) while having sexual intercourse inside a vehicle insured by Geico, and the company quickly found a petition for payout from the unnamed woman.

She alleged that because her partner failed to take proper precautions and infected her inside the insured car, her HPV infection should be covered by the policy.

[Undried Plum]

Bwahahaa!

Best said a Sid James sorta way.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Consequences

https://cms.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inli ... post_2.jpg

[Dushan]

Or more accurately “elections have consequences”.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Best said a Sid James sorta way.

You do know that Sid James was a Saffer, I hope!

[PHXPhlyer]

Court document in Proud Boys case laid out plan to occupy Capitol buildings on Jan. 6
“The goal is to ensure there is an entry point for the masses to rush the building," states the nine-page document, titled “1776 Returns."


WOW

Use link to view document.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justic ... -rcna33755

WASHINGTON — A document, titled “1776 Returns,” which federal prosecutors said was used by the leader of the Proud Boys, lays out a plan to occupy Capitol buildings on Jan. 6, 2021, using covert operators to let "patriots" inside government offices in an apparent effort to force a new election.

Enrique Tarrio, the former leader of the Proud Boys, and four other members were indicted on seditious conspiracy charges this month. Tarrio has twice been ordered detained until trial.

The nine-page document, filed in federal court Wednesday, lays out a plan to fill buildings “with patriots and communicate our demands." It stated goals include maintaining control "over a select few, but crucial buildings in the DC area for a set period of time" and getting as "many people as possible inside these buildings."

“These are OUR building, they are just renting space,” the document reads. “We must show our politicians We the People are in charge.”

The New York Times in March reported on some of the details contained in the document. It's full text was shared in a Wednesday court filing by one of the Proud Boy defendants.

A lawyer for Proud Boy Zachary Rehl, who is seeking release from pretrial detention, included the document in a motion, which maintains that Rehl “had no knowledge of the document.”

The document lists eight targets: the Supreme Court, the Russell Senate Office Building, the Dirksen Senate Office Building, the Hart Senate Office Building, the Cannon House Office Building, the Longworth House Office Building, the Rayburn House Office Building, and CNN.

Under a section titled "Manpower Needs," the document lays out five different roles: (1) Lead: “Covert Sleeper, sets up fake appointment — is expected to spend the day as our insider and let people inside the building”; (2) Second: "Takes the place of the lead in case of being discovered”; (3) Hypeman: “leads chants, must maintain energy / presence"; (4) Recruiter: “in charge of getting patriots for starting point for each building, share the ‘patriot plan’ document, spread the word"; and (5) Patriots: “Maintain a presence while handing out ‘patriot plan.’”


The document calls for “leads and seconds” to scope out entrances and exits on Jan. 6, encouraging "patriots" to use Covid-19 protocols to their advantage.

"Pack huge face masks & face shields, protect your identity," it reads. "If possible, be in building first thing in the morning. Be dressed in suits and unsuspecting, do not look tactical at all."

When it's time for "patriots" to storm the buildings, individuals might have to cause "trouble near the front doors to distract guards," the plan states. "The goal is to ensure there is an entry point for the masses to rush the building."

It demands a new election — "not a recount" — that involves "paper ballots only, no mail in ballots, no absentee ballots," with the National Guard monitoring the proceedings.

The Justice Department has filed criminal charges against at least 825 defendants in connection with the Jan. 6 attack. Hundreds more rioters have been identified by online sleuths. Over 300 people have pleaded guilty on charges ranging from misdemeanor offenses to seditious conspiracy.

PP

[llondel]

California is following the Texas lead, it seems.

Except where Texas said anyone could sue abortion providers, California says anyone can sue providers of illegal guns. Of course, that comes with certain risks that the Texas variant doesn't...

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/califor ... s/2930651/

[boing]

Illegal guns are already defined by Federal law. The State of California adds guns of its own choice to this list and they have done this for many years.

Sale of Federally defined Illegal guns is already a Federal offense punishable under Federal law so the only thing the California proposed law changes is that the seller of California defined illegal guns can be sued in California and these sellers can be sued even if they have not committed a Federal offense.

There are three difficulties with this proposed law. First, you have to find the seller which may be difficult because these folks hardly work via advertising campaign and certainly do not accept credit cards. Second, it will require a whole new level of investigation by an already overloaded police force to trace the seller. Third, a selected case of punishment for selling a California defined illegal firearm that is not a Federally defined illegal firearm may be appealed to the Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds which may not be a wise move at present.

The State of California knows it is on shaky legal grounds as proven by its offer to not press this firearm's law change if Texas abandons its abortion position. If someone could explain to me how the State of California's threat to sue its own citizens over illegal gun transactions is supposed to change Texas's mind over abortion I would be fascinated. Certainly this proposal is hypocritical. If it worthwhile to change a law to save lives why would it not be worth doing this in isolation without needing to get the laws of another independent state involved?

.

[llondel]

I was thinking more along the lines of suing someone who you already know has access to illegal firearms and might be somewhat pissed off at the legal inconvenience. It is just posturing, and I think is being done to highlight just where such vigilante laws could lead. Normally for legal stuff there's the concept of standing, where to bring a case it has to affect you personally in some way. Neither an abortion nor a an illegal gun is going to affect most of us. The recipient of a bullet from said gun (or I guess someone who was threatened with it), or someone related to the foetus might have some grounds to be upset but no one else.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I note the US military has just dropped its High School Diploma requirement.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/202 ... risis.html

Neck and hand tattoos are now fine also.

the vigour of the military government was relaxed

Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon (Ch. 38 - same book as the topic 'Total Extinction of the Western Empire')