WTF is happening in the UK?

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Undried Plum
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Here's what is wrong with the UK

#4901 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:31 am

RBS is an exemplar of what is fundamentally rotten in the UK.


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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4902 Post by Pinky the pilot » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:31 am

As an occasional visitor to this thread, may I also say, welcome back UP. :-bd And it is on my bended knee indeed that I ask, nay plead with you to try to, as PHXPhlyer posted.....
I know it is tough to bite your tongue fingers in this case, but please try. :-s
'Cos I for one enjoy your posts when it comes to the largely rational debate that goes on here. :-bd IMHO we certainly seem to have a better quality/class of member here than TOP.

And if I as a 'Colonial' :D may be permitted an observation on the goings on in the UK; Does anyone really believe that the current His Majesty's Opposition could do any better in Government? :-\
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4903 Post by Wodrick » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:48 am

Pinky the pilot wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:31 am
Does anyone really believe that the current His Majesty's Opposition could do any better in Government? :-\
I for one despair, I don't see a credible Guvmint in the 500 or so members.
So glad I'm coming to the end rather than starting out...
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4904 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:24 am

From The Times
"HMS Somerset, a Type 23 frigate, was sent to “reassure” those working near the pipelines after the suspected sabotage of Nord Stream 1 and 2, the Ministry of Defence said"

Better luck than HMS Blunderland? viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6931&hilit=submarine

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4905 Post by barkingmad » Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:43 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:24 am
From The Times
"HMS Somerset, a Type 23 frigate, was sent to “reassure” those working near the pipelines after the suspected sabotage of Nord Stream 1 and 2, the Ministry of Defence said"

Better luck than HMS Blunderland? viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6931&hilit=submarine
And hopefully better luck than HMS 'Astute', which I hope will not be sent to repair or plug the hole;

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ms-1119977 :-o

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4906 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:17 am

barkingmad wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:43 am
Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:24 am
From The Times
"HMS Somerset, a Type 23 frigate, was sent to “reassure” those working near the pipelines after the suspected sabotage of Nord Stream 1 and 2, the Ministry of Defence said"

Better luck than HMS Blunderland? viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6931&hilit=submarine
And hopefully better luck than HMS 'Astute', which I hope will not be sent to repair or plug the hole;

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ms-1119977 :-o
Its commander Andy Coles, 47, was later removed from command of the vessel.
Was that effectively the end of the commander's career, or is there a road to redemption in the Royal Navy?
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4907 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:20 am

The whole notion of seabed warfare is very interesting.
Speaking at the Conservative Party conference, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace announced that the first Multi-Role Ocean Surveillance Ship (MROSS) will be purchased this year and be operational next year. A second vessel designed specifically for this task will subsequently be constructed in the UK. Here we take a brief look at the context and implications of this project.

Official discussion of a seabed surveillance ship has been in the public domain since Boris Johnson’s Speech in November 2020 promising “to make the UK Europe’s foremost naval power” and included the plan to build a “new multi-role research vessel”. The vulnerability of submarine infrastructure has been a growing concern. In 2017 the think tank, Policy Exchange published a landmark document written by Rishi Sunak outlining the threat to undersea cables. The attack on the Nord Stream pipelines on 26 September has further focussed minds on the danger to undersea energy installations.

Seabed warfare in the Baltic
The Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines were built to deliver gas from Russia under the Baltic Sea to Germany. NS1 was damaged by two explosions and NS2 by a single explosion in incidents recorded off the coasts of Denmark and Sweden. Seismologists report the explosions were equivalent to the detonation of around 100 kilograms of TNT. Since the war in Ukraine, neither pipe was supplying Gas to Europe but the new NS2 was already filled with 177 million cubic metres of gas (worth about €358 million) to bring the pressure up to 300 bar ahead of pumping which never started. The leaking gas posed a small danger to local shipping but the unburned methane, a powerful greenhouse gas released into the atmosphere represents a minor environmental disaster. About 500 million cubic metres of gas escaped – the equivalent of 8 million tons of carbon dioxide or 0.02% of total annual global CO2 emissions.

It cannot be stated with certainty who caused the explosions but the Russians are by far the most likely culprit. Not only does their navy have the expertise and experience to carry out such an attack, but this kind of activity is also straight from their playbook of deniable nefarious activity covered by bare-faced lies and distractions. Significant Russian naval activity has been noted in the Baltic and it is not hard to imagine that UUVs were discreetly deployed to place explosives near the pipes to be detonated at a later date. There is even some speculation that the Russians may have placed explosives in the pipelines while they were constructed giving them an option to weaponise energy supplies if needed. Further investigations of the damage to the pipes may eventually provide more conclusive evidence about the method of attack and even the culprit.

The usual suspects were out in force to suggest the US was responsible for this “false flag” operation because Biden had said he could “put an end” to Nord Stream during a speech on February 7th. His implication was that this could be done by sanctions and diplomatic pressure on Germany and no one sensible considered him to be threatening a clumsy kinetic attack. It should be remembered that Trump, Biden and others repeatedly warned Germany about the folly of energy dependence on Russia but were ignored. The US Navy certainly has the capability but it is not credible to believe they would physically attack NATO allies in this way.

Gas prices surged again after the event, placing further financial pressure on Europe as Russia desperately tries to undermine NATO support for Ukraine. Most significantly, Russia is signalling it has the capacity to attack other oil and gas installations such as in the Norweigan Sea and North Sea upon which the UK is highly dependent.

New ships
With this wake-up call making seabed warfare a hot topic again, the Defence Secretary admitted how fragile the UK economy and infrastructure might be in the face of such hybrid attacks. “Our internet and our energy are highly reliant on pipelines and cables. Russia makes no secret of its ability to target such infrastructure, so for that reason, I can announce we recently committed to two specialist ships with the capability to keep our cables and pipelines safe. The first multi-role survey ship for seabed warfare will be purchased by the end of this year, fitted out here in the UK and then operational before the end of next year. The second ship will be built in the UK and we will plan to make sure it covers all our vulnerabilities.”

The details of how MROSS (1) will be delivered have not yet been announced but the first ship will be obviously purchased from commercial service for conversion. This could possibly be a platform supply vessel (PSV) or diving support vessel (DSV) with a large working deck at the stern, cranes and A-frame for recovering UUVs. Ideally, the vessel will have adequate accommodation for crews on long patrols, a UUV ‘hangar’ and workshop, a command and control facility and a good communications suite. (The video below provides a good example of the type of vessels operated by Ocean Infinity.) Other than light force protection weaponry, it is unlikely the ship will be armed. The ship may retain a civilian crew but have an embarked RN party. The Royal Fleet Auxiliary is short of people and it is unclear if it is in a position to generate the crew for an additional vessel within a year.



MROSS (2) will be purpose-built for the task but the ‘Multi-Role’ aspect of the project should be noted. A replacement for HMS Scott is needed but her main task of plodding up and down the ocean mapping up to 150Km2 of the seabed per hour using powerful sonar is rather different to monitoring undersea infrastructure. A balance will need to be struck between hydrographic survey and seabed surveillance capability. It is pure speculation but the RSS Sir David Attenborough perhaps could offer the basis for the design and could be built more quickly by Cammell Laird than if a clean sheet design was adopted. With some joined-up thinking, the same platform could be used again to build a replacement for HMS Protector.

Purchasing and converting a merchant ship for MROSS (1) may be the easier part of the project to implement. Uncrewed systems and sensors will be key to the new MROSS capability with the vessel likely acting as a mothership for a fleet of UUVs. New developments make the deployment of a fleet of UUVs to patrol up and down sections of pipelines and cables practical and affordable. Persistent Autonomous Underwater Vehicles (PAUV) that use very little power and can operate independently for several months are maturing and could be part of the solution. These systems need to be controlled and coordinated over a wide area and the data they gather needs to be transmitted and collated. The RN has limited in-house expertise in deploying UUVs on this scale and will likely lean heavily on expertise already accumulated in the civilian energy sector

There are thousands of miles of cables and pipelines as well as hundreds of separate energy installations that need protection. The scale of the task means this activity cannot be undertaken by the Royal Navy alone, one or two ships and some UUVs are a step in the right direction but more resources are needed. Securing this vulnerability will require broader international collaboration between governments, navies and industry. It is also perhaps not unreasonable to suggest that the affluent energy and telecoms corporations that own this strategically important infrastructure make a direct financial contribution to its protection.
https://www.navylookout.com/protecting- ... e-by-2023/
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4908 Post by barkingmad » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:30 am

TGA asked me: "Was that effectively the end of the commander's career, or is there a road to redemption in the Royal Navy?"

As per RAF practice he's probably a Rear-Admiral by now. The following is way outa date but gives a clue as to a possible desk job with a helm attached? =))

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thread ... es.255764/

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4909 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:47 am

barkingmad wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:30 am
TGA asked me: "Was that effectively the end of the commander's career, or is there a road to redemption in the Royal Navy?"

As per RAF practice he's probably a Rear-Admiral by now. The following is way outa date but gives a clue as to a possible desk job with a helm attached? =))

https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?thread ... es.255764/
Thanks for that interesting link. Seems that the poor chap was put into an invidious position and ended up fighting the seabed!
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4910 Post by FD2 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:20 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:43 am
Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:24 am
From The Times
"HMS Somerset, a Type 23 frigate, was sent to “reassure” those working near the pipelines after the suspected sabotage of Nord Stream 1 and 2, the Ministry of Defence said"

Better luck than HMS Blunderland? viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6931&hilit=submarine
And hopefully better luck than HMS 'Astute', which I hope will not be sent to repair or plug the hole;

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ms-1119977 :-o
Sometimes errors of judgment occur. If they are due to negligence the captain goes - out of submarines - for good. If he's otherwise capable he'll get an appointment elsewhere, ashore. Failing to supervise an inexperienced OOW is another cause for a captain losing his ship.

As I'm sure you realise this isn't an everyday occurrence if you had done any research into what has been happening since the start of the Cold War and the missions around the North Cape into Russian waters and has sweet FA to do with the present pipeline sabotage.

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4911 Post by TheGreenAnger » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:27 pm

FD2 wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:20 pm
barkingmad wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:43 am
Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:24 am
From The Times
"HMS Somerset, a Type 23 frigate, was sent to “reassure” those working near the pipelines after the suspected sabotage of Nord Stream 1 and 2, the Ministry of Defence said"

Better luck than HMS Blunderland? viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6931&hilit=submarine
And hopefully better luck than HMS 'Astute', which I hope will not be sent to repair or plug the hole;

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scot ... ms-1119977 :-o
Sometimes errors of judgment occur. If they are due to negligence the captain goes - out of submarines - for good. If he's otherwise capable he'll get an appointment elsewhere, ashore. Failing to supervise an inexperienced OOW is another cause for a captain losing his ship.

As I'm sure you realise this isn't an everyday occurrence if you had done any research into what has been happening since the start of the Cold War and the missions around the North Cape into Russian waters and has sweet FA to do with the present pipeline sabotage.
I had the pleasure of working on a project with a former Royal Navy submarine executive officer. A top man, and completely versatile. We were part of a project team managing an engineering asset quality audit on the tracks into Waterloo station. They teach them well it seems.
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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4912 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:10 pm

It is an interesting question, of all elite jobs in the military, of how much is trained, and how much is simply chucking out those who can't do it and offering the successful more opportunities to get better by experience.
Actually, this applies to all elite stuff. I used to have lots of discussions with my first Director of Sport, who had played hockey for England, about every aspect of sports. Most of this boiled down to the 'trainable' vs 'born with it' split.
Eventually, we'd finish training sessions and she might just say "55%", or whatever she assessed the trainable percentage for that skill was. Spacial awareness was something with a very low trainable percentage (also important to submarine executive officers). Captaincy was an interesting one. We decided to institute Captains' Half Hour each week, where we would put together the Captains for all sports, all ages and genders, and give them a chance to swap tales of the problems they'd faced, what they'd tried, and whether it had worked.

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4913 Post by FD2 » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:26 pm

Yes - the Perisher course is not for the faint hearted. I had a few daily trips, from an old 'A' boat to an SSN and Polaris and though the SSN and SSBN were very comfortable it was certainly not a specialisation I would have chosen. The diesel boats were cramped, uncomfortable and smelly but I don't think there was a shortage of volunteers - helped by the special service pay.

I can only speak for the Navy from the 1970s but anyone who failed the Perisher course simply left and went straight back to general service without a stain and many were successful in skimmers, or whatever the submariners call the surface fleet. Likewise people who failed flying courses went back to general service. Exceptions were short service people who may have been offered back seat roles or ATC. Some of those withdrawn from flying training did very well for themselves driving ships.

Cynically I'd say the rate of retention of those who had failed these two particular training courses may have depended on shortage categories elsewhere but in general they were fairly handled back then. Nowadays there seems to be a large number of people waiting a year of more to get on a flying course so they are over burdened with volunteers. That's probably the case in the submarine world too and the volunteers who ask for submarine training have to have a very good record in skimmers before they ever get accepted.

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4914 Post by barkingmad » Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:51 am

Back to our shiny new Chancellor of the Exchequer, allegedly during the tactless and insensitive champers party after the great financial announcement, one of the invited guests was overheard saying of Kamikwaze that "...he's a useful idiot..."!

The invited guests are in those occupations least likely to suffer from the measures and most likely to benefit viz hedge fund managers and their ilk. :-?

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4915 Post by Boac » Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:51 pm

Now, concentrate really hard here. We want you to know you can trust The Truss when she puts out a policy. No being turned away from her determination! https://www.politico.eu/article/liz-tru ... -minister/

Now, we want you to implement her policies - what ARE you waiting for?

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4916 Post by Boac » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:10 pm


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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4917 Post by OFSO » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:39 am

Since when did a Government warning the public to expect rolling three hour blackouts serve as a substitute for actually DOING SOMETHING to ensure an adequate generation of electricity....

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4918 Post by Boac » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:42 am

Has anyone thought about the loss of VOIP lines and mobile signal during the outages? I doubt many UPS kits will cope with the '3 hours'. Then, of course, there is no Ops-Normal........................

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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4919 Post by TheGreenAnger » Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:37 am

Boac wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:42 am
Has anyone thought about the loss of VOIP lines and mobile signal during the outages? I doubt many UPS kits will cope with the '3 hours'. Then, of course, there is no Ops-Normal........................
Good Lord, no...





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Re: WTF is happening in the UK?

#4920 Post by G-CPTN » Fri Oct 07, 2022 12:24 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:42 am
Has anyone thought about the loss of VOIP lines and mobile signal during the outages?
Will a typical domestic telephone line via fibre cease to work?

I am connected via fibre (at the exchange) then overhead copper into my property.

I do not have a cabinet between me and the exchange - I am 400 yards from the exchange.

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