WTF is happening in the UK?

[Rwy in Sight]

Fox3 the result is satisfactory and a policeman's life is saved. So it is a good policy irrespective of why it was adopted.

BTW what's wrong with Enid Blyton? Both series of her books are excellent.

[Slasher]

Didn’t know there was anything wrong with Enid Blyton’s books RiS. Have the local PC-riddled left wing-brainwashed millennial snowflakes banned them?

Next thing you know they’ll be protesting about Flo Upton’s golliwogs!

[Boac]

I was slightly confused by the London Bridge police shooting of the guy, as I understood 'they' thought he had an explosive vest on - so he was shot - but reports say the wounds were 'abdominal'. I would have though head shots would have been more suitable to prevent detonation? I post with no knowledge of how to shoot a hand gun to kill, mind you.

[barkingmad]

boac, in the heat of the moment and the obvious scuffle and struggle a hand-held short barrel might miss the head and waste rounds, time and risk ricochets-so aim for big target and pepper it?

H&K at reasonable range with laser sights could probably perform a type of brain surgery appropriate for disablement?

At least wandering around waving and stabbing knives he didn’t carry a release switch which would have initiated any IED he might have been carrying after brain death from head shot(s).

Trust the termination will join the ghastly videos these people like to watch in their maddrasses and discourage les autres?!

[barkingmad]

Slight change of topic, Beardy Branson’s very last train on WCML last night ground to a shuddering halt last night due a tech fault.

Yet he’s still going to sue the Dept Of Transport for over losing the franchise. That means you & me and all the UK taxpayers in the street will be paying m’learned friends to defend the case.

Just like he has sued the cash-strapped NHS over the misfortunes which have befallen his various forays into trying to make money out of healthcare. Again the man in the street has to shell out tax to defend against this “entrepreneur”. Maybe time he just got some sense and retired permanently to Necker Island to supervise the fire precautions needed for his little home?!

I hear Virgin ‘Upper Class’ on the Atlantic routes is no longer a superior product so looks like the lustre is wearing off??

[Boac]

[quote+BM]a hand-held short barrel[/quote] - I don't think the police use those! Whatever, job done.

[barkingmad]

I thought a pistol was by definition a short-barrel weapon. I doubt UK Plod walks around with the sort of piece that Clint Eastwood would be seen squinting down the barrel? I wasn’t implying something akin to a Derringer or a ladies’ handbag Saturday night special.

Somewhere on O-N we must have more informed opinion from someone who’s profession was firearms orientated? I admit to speculation only from limited experience in the mob.

[Pontius Navigator]

BM, I side with you, short barrel = pistol, H&K semi-automatic is certainly much longer whilst still shorter than a sniper rifle.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The Met use the Heckler&Koch G36 I believe. This would normally be called a carbine, since it has a shorter barrel than standard for a rifle. The barrel is 18.9 inches long, which is just over several countries' limits to count as a 'normal' rifle for public ownership. Carbines can be designed for pistol or rifle ammunition, depending on use requirements. The G36 uses standard NATO rifle ammo. Generally speaking, if it is intended for use outside a building, it will be rifle ammo, and solely for inside buildings (or other very short range use) it may be pistol ammo.

[barkingmad]

BM, I side with you, short barrel = pistol, H&K semi-automatic is certainly much longer whilst still shorter than a sniper rifle.

And I believe the H&K as carried by Plod has laser sights so improving the chances of better grouping of the ordnance.

You’d think that the red flash of the laser and the awareness of the red spot focussing on the selected body part would discourage most WEHFFs from making a wrong move unless they want to reach Paradise quickly and queue up for that delicious bowl of 72 sultanas?

[BenThere]

I had a session at the gun range a few months ago and fired 25 rounds at 50 yards, normally I fire at 25 yards. I soon learned to aim a quarter inch higher to try to put a hole in the center mass, close to the heart. I fire .45 cal ACP. So my strategy now is to aim at the throat at long range. That should result in a hit to the chest, right where I want it. No one can stand up to a .45 hitting in the chest.

[barkingmad]

Ben, at the range involved at the London Bridge episode I suspect the villain would not have stood a chance with nearly half an inch of ordnance boring into him at any body location.

Bearing in mind the brave Plod involved had to physically remove another member of public/prisoners present he had a difficult task for which I doubt any training scenario had prepared him.

I just hope he’s being treated sympathetically and properly by the Plod investigators and can get back to whatever counts as normal for these guys and gals on active duty on home territory. We in Europe would not be surprised to hear the ECHR being invoked and queries raised as to why he may not have shouted a warning nor rattled off the >50 word litany obligatory for any villain about to be arrested under our wonderful Police & Criminal Evidence Act. And that one was a UK invention which swung the pendulum too far the other way in favour of the bad guys and their molls.

[Pontius Navigator]

I asked a question somewhere but didn't see an opinion. Say the policeman had been incapacitated and his weapon available what if I grabbed it and shot the perp?

I would take due care that the perp was a clear and immediate danger to people that the policeman had been charged to protect. That the perp was not running bravely away and no longer a threat. Naturally I would take care to ensure that the bullets either hit their target or had no risk of collateral damage.

I imagine I would be arrested in much the same way the policeman was suspended. Would I be charged?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

That you would be arrested and charged is pretty much a certainty in today's climate.
What would then happen would be rather dependent on the circumstances, which I suspect are somewhat different this week than they were last week. You might well become a media cause celebre, and the 'Retired RAF Officer bravely saves police and civilian lives' story would probably ensure the case being dropped. Failing that, they'd probably bang you up for manslaughter, though a nice Home Secretary might quietly let you out after 5 years or so.

Faced with the scenario you present, I'd shoot first and ask questions later. It's just self-preservation, and I'd rather argue it out in court later - Tried by Twelve rather than Carried by Six. I suspect almost all ex-Servicemen would. However, I'd rather be a thousand miles from the nearest terrorist, as I am now; not uncoincidentally.

[G-CPTN]

The police officer has to be convinced that the assailant presented a threat to the PC's life - which the presence of the apparent suicide vest could be construed to present.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

That anyone in authority could "construe" it any other way is a fundamental cause of the problem.

[4mastacker]

I asked a question somewhere but didn't see an opinion. Say the policeman had been incapacitated and his weapon available what if I grabbed it and shot the perp?

I would take due care that the perp was a clear and immediate danger to people that the policeman had been charged to protect. That the perp was not running bravely away and no longer a threat. Naturally I would take care to ensure that the bullets either hit their target or had no risk of collateral damage.

I imagine I would be arrested in much the same way the policeman was suspended. Would I be charged?

Possibly - for not having a firearms licence/murder/discharging a firearm in the street....and what about your RoE?

Even when on authorised live-armed guard, we had strict RoE which were "loaded" against us (except for one particular set of RoE with which I'm sure you are familiar) - basically, we could only open fire if we, or others who it was our duty to protect, had been fired at and there was no other way of stopping the perp.

Even acting in accordance to the very letter of the RoE, anyone who loosed off a round (whether or not it hit the target) could expect a very thorough grilling in the peaceful calm of a court room many months after the event. I don't think a passer-by picking up a disabled policeman's weapon and giving a perp the good news would have a valid defence in court. Whilst the Court of Public Opinion might be on your side, I suspect the CPS and a Court of Law may view things differently.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A civilian picking up the rifle only need meet the definition of reasonable and proportionate force. He has no RoE. It is acknowledged that the frame of mind of the individual at the time is important.

Lord Morris in Palmer v R[4] stated the following about someone confronted by an intruder or defending himself against attack:

“ If there has been an attack so that defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken… ”

— Palmer v R [1971] AC 814

A visible device which looks like a suicide vest, and a terrorist who is not complying with orders to stop moving, is quite sufficient grounds for shooting him, in the head of course. Running away will not get one out of the blast of the bomb in time, and attempting a physical assault may not succeed in time. One would have to have grabbed the weapon and immediately shot him for this to apply.

p.s. the safety catch on a Met Police G36 is in about the same place as on an SA80, as is the cocking handle, should you ever need that gen.

[boing]

I love those official warnings. "Freeze, freeze, this is the police. Put your hands up and don't move", meanwhile, if the officer is facing a real threat he is already being shot at.
I watched one officer undergoing periodic training, there was at least a millisecond between "don't move" and the bang.

I get to be around quite a lot of training and the one thing that is very obvious is that the training is very much influenced by the social and legal attitudes of the community administration because they do not want to be blamed for any embarrassing incidents taking place on their watch.

As with aviation the actual instructors are very dedicated but they are limited by the training facilities provided and they don't have time to teach all that they would like to teach. The training is very much like aviation training, you spend endless hours preparing for the obvious failures but you know for sure that when the big one happens it is not going to fit the script.

Frankly I doubt if one in a thousand UK civilians could actually recover a pistol or a carbine, ensure it is in firing condition, and aim and fire effectively. Do they know where the safety catch is, is it on or off? Is there a round in the chamber since most safety rules discourage carrying a pistol with a cartridge in the breech? Do they know how to chamber a cartridge? Are they ready for the varying trigger pull between the double action and single action operations? You have two seconds to find the answers. Then you have to make the shot

.

[llondel]

A civilian carrying out what a police officer was rendered incapable of doing, I'd like to think that even if it got to court, the jury would say "justifiable homicide, not guilty". That would certainly be my inclination.