Migrants

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John Hill
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Re: Migrants

#361 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:46 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:35 am
I didn't have time to respond to your comment about the history of Talibans. However I am not sure if it would be very realistic to really help those people affected by moving them to the West and try to integrate them there.
Your country definitely abused Afghanistan including formenting war and the growth of guerilla groups and now you are saying it is too hard to help the survivors and their children?
So just what are you going to do, excluding your current practice of causing starvation and misery in other countries, too many for me to think of?

Not only Afghanistan but you also owe refugees from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya and more, many more....
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Re: Migrants

#362 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:56 am

Just a little light reading...

https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/20/giv ... tical-view
Ultimately, the UK’s greatest assistance to the displaced will be in reexamining our role in the conflicts that drive them from their homes in the first place.

The roots of this go deep. Since the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, Britain has played a central role in creating weak, economically subservient and politically unstable states in the Middle East and Africa. These intractable domestic and international conflicts were further exacerbated by subsequent foreign policy decisions, which have gone from bad to worse since the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
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Re: Migrants

#363 Post by OFSO » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:00 am

Read your history. It is an illusion, from which Great Britian, the USSR, and the USA suffered, to consider order could be brought to the country. There was never a time when Afghanistan was "at peace". Since time immemorial they have fought their neighbours and when they were not at war they fought each other.

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Re: Migrants

#364 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:22 am

OFSO wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:00 am
Read your history. It is an illusion, from which Great Britian, the USSR, and the USA suffered, to consider order could be brought to the country. There was never a time when Afghanistan was "at peace". Since time immemorial they have fought their neighbours and when they were not at war they fought each other.
Quite unlike Britain which has never been at war with anyone eh? Except of course that time in 1838 when they invaded Afghanistan.

This of course is a nice diversion but the fact remains that Britain and other Western countries have a huge debt to refugees all over the world.
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Re: Migrants

#365 Post by AtomKraft » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:33 am

Listening to the wirleess this morning, it's clear that Terry Taliban is in the midst of a huge comeback in his own country, now that the US/ UK have got bored and gone home.

They had a couple of Afghan ladies on kinda bemoaning this, and stating why it's all such a bad thing.

Well, it's their country, and if they don't like the idea of the Taliban returning, complaining to the BBC isn't going to make much of a difference.

I suggest they get together and try to do something about it, and if they cannot be bothered to- then don't expect anyone else to be bothered for you.

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Re: Migrants

#366 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:37 am

John Hill wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:22 am
This of course is a nice diversion but the fact remains that Britain and other Western countries have a huge debt to refugees all over the world.
Britain does not owe any debt of gratitude to criminals.

Illegal immigrants are, by definition, criminals.

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Re: Migrants

#367 Post by Pinky the pilot » Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:31 am


I suggest they get together and try to do something about it, and if they cannot be bothered to- then don't expect anyone else to be bothered for you.
Some of the Afghan Military certainly do not seem to want to fight the Taliban, do they? Surrenduring en-masse and handing over their equipment, intact, to the Talibs.

Wonder why? :-\
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Re: Migrants

#368 Post by OFSO » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:13 pm

English government policy in the Indian continent for the last three hundred years was chacterised more by arogance and incompetence than ill-will. Discuss.

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Re: Migrants

#369 Post by OFSO » Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:28 pm

The British went to Afghanistan to close the back door to India which it was thought the Russians were eyeing up. The Russians went to Afghanistan to keep the Muslims under control. The Americans went to Afghanistan to suppress the terrorist Taliban. Who is next on the merry-go-round....

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Re: Migrants

#370 Post by AtomKraft » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:19 pm

Let the Afghans solve their own problems, or not.

It's none of our business.

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Re: Migrants

#371 Post by OFSO » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:36 pm

Interesting how much the farming of poppy and production of opium increased while our American cousins were in occupation. The result of pacification.

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Re: Migrants

#372 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:58 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:37 am
John Hill wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:22 am
This of course is a nice diversion but the fact remains that Britain and other Western countries have a huge debt to refugees all over the world.
Britain does not owe any debt of gratitude to criminals.

Illegal immigrants are, by definition, criminals.
They are only criminals because you say they are. They are in fact refugees and migrants fleeing violence, upheaval, starvation and so on.
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Re: Migrants

#373 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:59 pm

AtomKraft wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:19 pm
Let the Afghans solve their own problems, or not.

It's none of our business.
Britain made it their business when they invaded Afghanistan.
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Re: Migrants

#374 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:06 pm

Pinky the pilot wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:31 am

I suggest they get together and try to do something about it, and if they cannot be bothered to- then don't expect anyone else to be bothered for you.
Some of the Afghan Military certainly do not seem to want to fight the Taliban, do they? Surrenduring en-masse and handing over their equipment, intact, to the Talibs.

Wonder why? :-\
Perhaps they know that the present government is rotten to the core and strange it may sound but they may see the Taleban as a potential improvement.
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Re: Migrants

#375 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 pm

John Hill wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:58 pm
They are only criminals because you say they are. They are in fact refugees and migrants fleeing violence, upheaval, starvation and so on.
They are criminals because they break our immigration laws. That's what makes them criminals.

Britain is a safe haven for legitimate political refugees. There is a well established system for assessing the validity of applications for political asylum. The criminals who get into boats to cross the Channel ilicitly are just criminals, that's all.


The same is true of the millions of criminal migrants who enter the UK on a false pretext of a limited stay and then overstay their visas. The official estimate of those is only three million, but other estimates, based on such thing as volumetric analysis of sewage quantities, put the figure closer to ten million.

This is criminality on a huge scale and the Home Office doesn't seem to be doing very much about it, despite the phony bluster of that ghastly Patel woman.

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Re: Migrants

#376 Post by AtomKraft » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:11 pm

Maybe the Taliban ARE an improvement? Who knows?

In any case, it's up to them to sort it out.

Twenty years of trying to sort it out for them is plenty, and we achieved nothing of any real consequence, except maybe giving them 20 years of reduced Talib.

There has to be a limit to these things, and we cannot stay forever.

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Re: Migrants

#377 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:16 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:10 pm

They are criminals because they break our immigration laws. That's what makes them criminals.
'Criminals' because you say so otherwise they are refugees and migrants.
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Re: Migrants

#378 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:25 pm

AtomKraft wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:11 pm
Maybe the Taliban ARE an improvement? Who knows?
Check your history books for early-mid 90's.

In any case, it's up to them to sort it out.
You helped break it now it is up to them to fix it.

Twenty years of trying to sort it out for them is plenty, and we achieved nothing of any real consequence, except maybe giving them 20 years of reduced Talib.
You didn't go there to sort it out but if you did you made a piss poor job of it. You did not reduce the Taleban in fact they are probably now stronger than ever plus there are the rabid groups that previously did even exist in Afghanistan.
There has to be a limit to these things, and we cannot stay forever.
Is that a quote from Elphinstone?
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Re: Migrants

#379 Post by AtomKraft » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:26 pm

With respect John, Bollocks.

They are safe when they reach France.

If the came direct to us, then you have a point- but they transit other 'safe', if not as generous as the UK, countries before they paddle illegally to the UK.

There might be a few genuine asylum seekers amongst them, but the majority are illegal immigrants.

Criminals, in other words.

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Re: Migrants

#380 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:30 pm

'Criminals' because you say so otherwise they are refugees and migrants.

No. They are criminals because they break the law. That's all.

The fact that so many of the countries they flee from are shitholes is not our problem. Many of those countries demanded, and were given, independence from the British Empire. With independence comes a responsibility to sort themselves out. They were all given plenty of aid in the form of technical advice on how to set up and run a judicial system and a parliamentary system and a sewerage system and an electrical grid system and a telecomms system and an air traffic control system etc.

Now we are done with those countries. They are no longer our problem, unless we make it so with such stupidity as invading Afghanistan, Iraq etc or by obliterating the civil governance of Libya, Syria etc.

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