Migrants

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Rwy in Sight
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Re: Migrants

#341 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:59 am

I thought according to your comments Taleban are nice fellows with a ruined reputation by the Western media. Now their advancement causes refugees... Something wrong here. And the New York times have an article on how they amputated the body of a journalist they killed. Unfortunately I don't have the reference from NYT.

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Re: Migrants

#342 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:02 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:59 am
I thought according to your comments Taleban are nice fellows with a ruined reputation by the Western media.
I do not recall any such comments.
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Re: Migrants

#343 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:25 am

Just what do you know about the Taleban? Have you ever seen a Taleb? Met one or had dinner with one?
You asked me those questions when I mentioned how dangerous Talibans. I take those points as a disagreement but if we agree that their respect of life is non -existent I am ok with that

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Re: Migrants

#344 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:29 am

You missed the bit about the Western media.
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Re: Migrants

#345 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:56 am

So they suffer from a poor PR performance, totally unjustified based on their actions.

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Re: Migrants

#346 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:34 am

UP, you didn't have to go as far as Norway to see what happened to collaborators. Enemy at the Door about Guernsey but filmed in Jersey.

We met one old lady, a young wife during the war, whose husband was a carter, by name and occupation. He was much older than her and had risked deportation or worse for one act if defiance had he been caught. He stole a Union Flag after a burial service and the Germans searched high and low but never found it.

We met another couple, mother and daughter, devote Christians, the daughter never married and was never truely accepted in Guernaise society.

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Re: Migrants

#347 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:07 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:34 am
UP, you didn't have to go as far as Norway to see what happened to collaborators. Enemy at the Door about Guernsey but filmed in Jersey.

We met one old lady, a young wife during the war, whose husband was a carter, by name and occupation. He was much older than her and had risked deportation or worse for one act if defiance had he been caught. He stole a Union Flag after a burial service and the Germans searched high and low but never found it.

We met another couple, mother and daughter, devote Christians, the daughter never married and was never truely accepted in Guernaise society.
I can remember as recently as the early 1980s in Jersey some old women were referred to as Jerrybags.

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Re: Migrants

#348 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:34 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:56 am
So they suffer from a poor PR performance, totally unjustified based on their actions.
You seem to have lost the plot entirely.
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Re: Migrants

#349 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:37 am

I can remember as recently as the early 1980s in Jersey some old women were referred to as Jerrybags.
I think you would find the hatred and suspicion in Afghanistan is a little more than name calling.
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Re: Migrants

#350 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:03 am

John Hill wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:34 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:56 am
So they suffer from a poor PR performance, totally unjustified based on their actions.
You seem to have lost the plot entirely.
I would welcome some assistance to understand the situation.

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Re: Migrants

#351 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:06 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:03 am
I would welcome some assistance to understand the situation.
OK, I will do my best.

Afghanistan is a country that has endured violence and upheaval for the last 50 or more years. There was a moderately stable environment for a few years before that but you can go back in history as far as you like and someone would have been fighting in or invading Afghanistan. The ancient king of Persia (one of the world's largest empires at the time) went to Afghanistan and never got home alive. Alexander the Great only got out of Afghanistan after marrying Bactrian Princess Roxanne, that sounds like a lovely story but she (probably) poisoned him 4 years later.

The British had a go but had to retreat from Kabul in 1842, they thought they had a safe passage guarantee but they did not. About 4,500 troops and 12,000 civilians were killed going through the Gandamak Pass. Legend has it that there was only one survivor, a certain Dr Watson who reached Jalalabad on a dying horse. Dr Watson limped home to find a position with Sherlock Holmes. Of course legends being what they are we are not told of the considerable number of Indian troops who were smart enough not to go through the pass.

Things got a bit more hectic in the 20th century with coups, murders and even an election or two and eventually a socialist government which the Soviets thought would be in their interest to assist. It took them ten years before they too packed their bags and their survivors crossed the bridge out of the country.

With the Soviets gone the country fell into tribal warfare with various 'war lords' each with his own fiefdom and of course they fought each other. Iran had a lot of trade with Pakistan which required trucks to cross Afghanistan and the drivers had to pay each war lord along the way, some made the journey, some even made it with their truck and cargo intact but generally they considered themselves lucky to arrive alive.

Some time in the early '90's Mullah Omar who was in Pakistan recruited an army from young Afghan men who had been brought up in refugee camps having arrived there during the Soviet occupation era. These recruits were mostly drawn from of Islamic madrassahs and they were called 'Talebs', which means 'student' in Pashtu (I think).

Omar led his army of Talebs into Afghanistan and began to clean out the warlords and in no time at all he was establishing a government in Kabul while the surviving warlords, being faced with a common enemy, put their differences aside and formed the Northern Alliance, they were holed up in the Pansjir Valley while the Taleban had restored a form of order over about 85% of the country. Omar's stated aim with to form an Islamic state in Afghanistan but realistically he had no chance. His government had no source of domestic income and trade was impossible with political isolation and embargoes from just about every country.

The entire Taleban cabinet had barely a full set of arms and legs between them and the only manual they had to guide them was more than 1500 years old and written in a language they could not read.

Around about 1998 I heard Afghans (obviously harking back to the balmy days of the '60's) in their naivety saying that they hoped America would come to their aid.

By late 1999 the only institutions still functioning in the country included the Post Office, Arianna Afghan Airlines and of course the cut flowers business.

Then we had a new century and 911 for which Afghanistan was selected to carry the can.

The invaders chased the Taleban out of town and the next twenty years have been marked by heavy military violence, murders, massacres, torture, general destruction and of course corruption. All military and semi-military parties engaged in war crimes both minor and major and I do not know of any exceptions (perhaps the 1 man contingent from Georgia was clean).

Now the invaders have left and both the warlords and the Taleban have ambitious plans for their future.
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Re: Migrants

#352 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:14 pm

In the 1980s the Taliban were called "Mujahedeen" by the West. The CIA invested over $5Bn in supporting them.

Even the Brits got involved. I know for sure that an estate in Dumfriesshire and another in Argyll were used as training grounds to teach the Taliban Mujahedeen in the arts of ambushing helicopters and other ground attack aircraft with Manpads.

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Re: Migrants

#353 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:24 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:14 pm
In the 1980s the Taliban were called "Mujahedeen" by the West. The CIA invested over $5Bn in supporting them.
Not really, the Mujahideen were the groups sponsored by numerous countries and who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden was among them. They were before the Taleban was formed in Pakistan by Mullah Omar. After the Soviets left the Muj. broke apart and various factions continued to fight each other (i.e. 'warlords'). Some went to Pakistan and some there joined the newly forming Taleban.
Even the Brits got involved. I know for sure that an estate in Dumfriesshire and another in Argyll were used as training grounds to teach the Taliban Mujahedeen in the arts of ambushing helicopters and other ground attack aircraft with Manpads.
The Grocer's Daughter was in at the ground floor plotting with others how to turn the Soviet invasion their advantage. They actually encouraged the formation of the Mujahideen and of course supplied arms and training.

The Taleban were not the Mujahideen and the Taleban were formed with the intention of clearing out the warlords and forming a pure Islamic state.

However some Muj. members did join the Taleban. Some warlords were involved in forming the present government.

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan, the Mujahideen fought the Soviets and when the Soviets left the Mujahideen took to fighting each other and became known as warlords.

The Taleban swept most of the country clean of the warlords but countries of the West insisted the warlord alliance was the legitimate government of A'stan and tried to starve the Taleban out of existence.
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Re: Migrants

#354 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:24 pm

"Al Qaida" was an invention. A myth. Just like the phantom arms factory in Sudan which was bombed to rubble by Clinton.

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Re: Migrants

#355 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:31 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:24 pm
"Al Qaida" was an invention. A myth. Just like the phantom arms factory in Sudan which was bombed to rubble by Clinton.

There was a rather good article in Counterpunch about that.

The Septics used their theory that their own former puppet bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan as an excuse to bomb, invade and occupy that country.

When they discovered that he was actually hiding in Pakistan, not Afghanistan, did they bomb, invade and occupy that country? No. Why not?

Not one single Afghan was involved in 9/11. Not one. The plot was planned in Germany, not Afghanistan. The "terrrorist training camp" where the terrorist were trained how to fly Boeing 75/67s was in the United States of America, not in Afghanistan. Their instructors were all-American boys.

Eight Ayrabs pitch up at a sim school asking to be trained how to fly the 75/76 and say that they are not interested in learning how to take off or how to land. :-B :o)

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Re: Migrants

#356 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:49 pm

I was indirectly related to one of those flight schools (after the fact).
The FAA also dropped the ball. They approved the training of two of the terrorist months after 9/11. ~X( :-q L-)

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Re: Migrants

#357 Post by John Hill » Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:05 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:24 pm
"Al Qaida" was an invention. A myth. Just like the phantom arms factory in Sudan which was bombed to rubble by Clinton.
Al Qaida was Osama Bin Laden's group, they were in Afghanistan only because Osama had a history in the Muj so I guess he could play a few cards relating to that and because A'stan had been made a pariah state it was a place he could hole up. Al Qaida men were Arabs, which Afghans are not. I was told in 1999 'If you think the Taleban are bad, there is another group who are much worse'.

Osama's agenda was totally different to Omars. Osama wanted to free the Islamic world from foreigners, Omar wanted to form an Islamic state in A'stan.
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Re: Migrants

#358 Post by John Hill » Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:51 am

.... a comment by an unnamed US defense official to CNN's Barbara Starr that "it's not going well" is an uncharacteristically deadpan assessment of the unfolding mess in Afghanistan.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/03/worl ... index.html

The Taleban seem to be making gains in all parts of Afghanistan and explosions rock the diplomatic/commercial centre of capital Kabul.

Hundreds of thousands of people on the move seeking safety adding to the already total of 2-3 million Afghanistan refugees.

Several of the major countries of the world have contributed to the deplorable state of Afghanistan but who among them will take responsibility for refugees?
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Re: Migrants

#359 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:29 am

John Hill wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:51 am
Several of the major countries of the world have contributed to the deplorable state of Afghanistan but who among them will take responsibility for refugees?
I remember a semi-stateless office tea-boy in the Bahrain office in the early 1990s. He was from Northern Pakistan.

He used to wag his head from side to side and say in a Peter Sellers way "Those bloody Afghans. They own all the local shops and they rip you off." He meant it.

It was his experience. He didn't know what he was saying to us Brits and he didn't understand why we laughed at his plight and that why he was trying to get away from such a situation was so funny to us.

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Re: Migrants

#360 Post by Rwy in Sight » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:35 am

I didn't have time to respond to your comment about the history of Talibans. However I am not sure if it would be very realistic to really help those people affected by moving them to the West and try to integrate them there.

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