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Rwy in Sight wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:44 am

I was talking about those issues with a liberal friend just the day before yesterday. It seems Western democracy can't operate well between the Atlantic and Indochina save some particular cases like Israel and maybe Jordan. Maybe the largest mistake of the EU/US in recent times was to encourage the Arab Spring series of uprisings given how it turned in most areas for the citizens.

Are excluding the world's largest democracy?

I am not so sure about Israel as I do not like apartheid.

For Afghanistan the disrespect of human life by the Talibans make the situation particularly difficult.

Just what do you know about the Taleban? Have you ever seen a Taleb? Met one or had dinner with one? You do know I suppose that the Taleban laws are close to those of Saudi Arabia. That country seems a favorite of America and you must be careful not to fall out with the Septics.

If your reference to the world's largest democracy is to the USA I don't see how it fits on my description as the zone I describe goes eastwards.

Israel has recently changed Prime Minister peacefully and without a military intervention. You might not like they handle Palestinians in the occupied territories but this is a different discussion.

Talebans I take the information available but most would agree that respect for human life and different opinions rank high on their behaviour as seen so far.

Ummm. I meant the largest democracy by population.

Whatever, Israel is an apartheid state.

So you do not really know much about the Taleban and of course you do not know that the problems of Afghanistan are not the Taleban.

Would you care to teach me how kind, nice and tolerant are Talibans and thus unfairly projected as problematic in world media?

And I would take living in Israel as white male whether Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or Haifa rather practically any country around it - not even Cyprus I can't drive on the wrong side of the road.

Iran and Afghanistan were not considered to be part of the British Empire and whilst Iran was a protectorate I'm not sure it was considered to be part of the Empire

Sept 11th 2001 "What's happened? You don't say, 19 fanatical Muslim hijackers, 15 of whom were Saudi's on CIA sponsored visas, have just toppled the 2 towers of the WTC and hit the Pentagon"?!

"Yessir, what are we going to do and how will we retaliate?"

"Aah, I think we'd better bomb Afghanistan back into the Stone Age as that there UBL chap with serious kidney disease was co-ordinating it from his laptop with wi-fi from a Tora Bora cave".

"Yessir, shall we start to load up the B-52s immediately?"

"Of course, as soon as possible, but FFS don't do anything to upset the Saudi's, we can't afford the taps to be turned off now that the pipeline through Afghanistan is off the menu!" (June 2001 in Berlin)

And so it goes on, the final act taking place as we speak.

And now revision for those who've forgotten recent history since "Carry On Up The Khyber";

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/11/afgh-n20.html

Rwy in Sight wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:19 am

Would you care to teach me how kind, nice and tolerant are Talibans and thus unfairly projected as problematic in world media?

Nothing is simple if you do not know the modern history of Afghanistan. Soviets, warlords, Taleban, US and vassal states. Now the 'liberators' have left the country leaving a weak government which will soon fall. Either the Taleban will take control again or we will see another decade of civil wars between the warlords, take your pick. How much different it would have been if Mullah Omar and his Talebs had been recognized back in the mid '90's but no, the experts who knew what was best just had to invade and put the warlords back in Kabul.

And I would take living in Israel as white male whether Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or Haifa rather practically any country around it - not even Cyprus I can't drive on the wrong side of the road.

Of course you would and you would see for yourself just how nice and tolerant your hosts are towards the original inhabitants of what was once called Palestine.

1DC wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:39 pm

Iran and Afghanistan were not considered to be part of the British Empire and whilst Iran was a protectorate I'm not sure it was considered to be part of the Empire

Who said anything about being part of the Empire?

Empire or not Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered from British actions including invasions, plundering and political meddling and sabotage.

Britain owes a debt to all refugees fleeing those and other countries which carry the scars of British benevolence.

barkingmad wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:43 pm

And so it goes on, the final act taking place as we speak.

The final act is not here yet.........it is just a repeat of 1989..

I was probably getting ahead of myself wondering what you would have to say when you got on to the Empire1

John Hill wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:03 pm

Empire or not Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered from British actions including invasions, plundering and political meddling and sabotage.

Britain owes a debt to all refugees fleeing those and other countries which carry the scars of British benevolence.

I think you could make a case for giving some of assistance to the likes of the Afghan interpreters. When a foreign military occupation comes to an end, the liberated people tend not to be very nice to the people who had been collaborators. I think such people might have a valid case to put forward in supporting a claim for political asylum in the UK or US.

That should not be carte blanche for illegal immigration though. Any potential applicant should automatically be disbarred from consideration if they are caught breaking the Laws of UK immigration.

I remember in Norway in the 1970s the locals all knew who had been nazi supporters and sympathisers and ostracised them. Even though it was three decades after the occupation, memories were very fresh. Many of those collaborators emigrated to Minnesota where their faces weren't known to the local Norwegian population. Something similar happened to SS officers at the end of the war. Many of them buggered off to Chile and Argentina and Spain to start a new life.

I do not, however, accept that Britain owes a free living to people from countries which we abused just because they are from one of those countries. There are just too many such countries and their populations are just too large for us to make such a promise.

Undried Plum wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:49 pm

I do not, however, accept that Britain owes a free living to people from countries which we abused just because they are from one of those countries. There are just too many such countries and their populations are just too large for us to make such a promise.

Do you think that the actions of your country should be forgiven because they were so grievous? Why are you not working to solve the mess you left behind?

The debt is owed and if not paid you will never be free of the consequences.

Undried Plum wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:49 pm

John Hill wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:03 pm

Empire or not Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan have all suffered from British actions including invasions, plundering and political meddling and sabotage.

Britain owes a debt to all refugees fleeing those and other countries which carry the scars of British benevolence.

I do not, however, accept that Britain owes a free living to people from countries which we abused just because they are from one of those countries. There are just too many such countries and their populations are just too large for us to make such a promise.

However accepting and helping those people it would make easier for the governments to close the doors and send home all other illegal immigrants from those countries.

Interesting article in Al Jazeera today, Jacinda in a pacific island community ceremony apologising on behalf of New Zealand for dawn raids by the police in the seventies and arresting and deporting illegal immigrants..

I bet that warmed your cockles.

A grossly disrespectful comment elsewhere today about Blessed Jacinda said that at least someone had found a good use for Shergar's teeth!!

For those too young or too far away to know about Shergar, I attach the following reference;

http://www.freepubquiz.co.uk/horse-quiz.html

Ower Jacinda's teeth are a clear demonstration of the effectiveness of NZ's socialist free dental care for children and young people.

On the blessed Jacinda, I think the toothy one could eat an apple through a tennis racquet.

If those who wished to leave repressive dictatorships to live in freedom elsewhere were able to do so, it would be interesting how the dictators handled having no one to whom they could dictate.

Things are heating up in Afghanistan with the Taleban active in almost all districts. Pakistan say they cannot accept refugees.