The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#81 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:02 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:57 pm
Covid-19: Stop anti-vaccination fake news online with new law says Labour https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54947661

Erewego, not content with the Stasi-like regime already implemented by a Conservative administration, the Lefties are calling for further Soviet-style restrictions on free speech.

I will continue to compare Blighty today with the glorious Berlin of 1974 as featured in the More4 TV series “The Same Sky” and to note the similarities between the 2 societies! [-X
Yep, I guess people should have the right to generally spout drivel but there is a limit in the sense, for example, where a dangerous myth has been debunked and people with an agenda continue to push their often malicious and malignant crap vide. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for example.

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... crush-them
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#82 Post by boing » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:53 pm

"Conspiracy theories are dangerous, here is how to crush them"

Call the Inquisition! This man Galileo must be stopped from spreading his ludicrous beliefs.

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2 ... crush-them



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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#83 Post by barkingmad » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:15 am

boing, alas your link turns up a 404 Page Not Found which adequately illustrates the problem we are facing.

Unless of course the link does so deliberately...? :-? :-w

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#84 Post by boing » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:19 pm

BM

The link I used is a repeat of the one in GG's post where I got the quote. Try that, I'm sure GG doesn't use dummy links. :-h :-h

Comes up 404 for me as well but the GG link works.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#85 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:31 pm

boing wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:19 pm
BM

The link I used is a repeat of the one in GG's post where I got the quote. Try that, I'm sure GG doesn't use dummy links. :-h :-h

Comes up 404 for me as well but the GG link works.
.
Gentlemen I get 404 as well. It did work before. It is a conspiracy I tell you! ;)))
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#86 Post by boing » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:55 pm

The difficulty of course is who adjudicates whether something is a true statement or whether it is a dangerous myth.

Would we now call Enoch Powell's speech which caused him to be labelled racist in his own time a dangerous myth or a wise prediction? It has been partially justified.

Conversely, would we call the Labour position on Colonial disengagement a dangerous myth? It demonstrably led to Mugabe et al.

My broad brush would say that politicians, the media, business, the fanatics in any form and the judiciary cannot be trusted to decide the truth because they all have an interest in the outcome. This leaves the wise man and the common man. The wise man will be castrated by the members of the previous list because he might gain a following. The common man, if he has any interest at all, will sit and rail at their performance.

In the end truth will actually win but only when the conclusion is inevitable and perhaps too late to change.

Julian Assange:
Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be "taken out" by US special forces. Sarah Palin says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister's office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.
Jonathan Swift
“Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect: like a man, who hath thought of a good repartee when the discourse is changed, or the company parted; or like a physician, who hath found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead.”
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#87 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:33 am

boing wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:55 pm
The difficulty of course is who adjudicates whether something is a true statement or whether it is a dangerous myth.

Would we now call Enoch Powell's speech which caused him to be labelled racist in his own time a dangerous myth or a wise prediction? It has been partially justified.

Conversely, would we call the Labour position on Colonial disengagement a dangerous myth? It demonstrably led to Mugabe et al.

My broad brush would say that politicians, the media, business, the fanatics in any form and the judiciary cannot be trusted to decide the truth because they all have an interest in the outcome. This leaves the wise man and the common man. The wise man will be castrated by the members of the previous list because he might gain a following. The common man, if he has any interest at all, will sit and rail at their performance.

In the end truth will actually win but only when the conclusion is inevitable and perhaps too late to change.

Julian Assange:
Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be "taken out" by US special forces. Sarah Palin says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister's office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.
Jonathan Swift
“Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it, so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late; the jest is over, and the tale hath had its effect: like a man, who hath thought of a good repartee when the discourse is changed, or the company parted; or like a physician, who hath found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead.”
.
The basis of logic, rationality and the scientific principle should be paramount and will ultimately prevail. All opinions are not equal and only the deluded, the lost or the fool believes that all opinions are equal and that every hare brained theory opinion or simply a lie, should be given equal currency and credence!
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#88 Post by boing » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 am

GG
All opinions are not equal and only the deluded, the lost or the fool believes that all opinions are equal and that every hare brained theory opinion or simply a lie, should be given equal currency and credence!]
"All opinions are not equal". Pray tell me who has the wisdom, or folly, to rank opinions by validity. This must indeed be an extraordinary being with the ability to look back in time, see the present state of mind of a billion people and also see into the future to judge the effect of his decisions. Of course, the latter is a tricky bit because by suppressing an opinion he actually changes the future he peered into meaning that he is engaged in a never ending loop.

I think the simple solution is to leave judgement of the utility of an opinion to the common man, he has made this judgement many millions of times in his existence and while he has made mistakes things generally turned out OK. Conversely, relying on the judgement of those in power on major decisions has rarely worked out well, at least for the common man.

What I particulary object to is the idea that some opinions should be "crushed" ( your Link to the Economist in post#81. That way puts us back into the hands of those in power.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#89 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:41 am

boing wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 am
GG
All opinions are not equal and only the deluded, the lost or the fool believes that all opinions are equal and that every hare brained theory opinion or simply a lie, should be given equal currency and credence!]
"All opinions are not equal". Pray tell me who has the wisdom, or folly, to rank opinions by validity. This must indeed be an extraordinary being with the ability to look back in time, see the present state of mind of a billion people and also see into the future to judge the effect of his decisions. Of course, the latter is a tricky bit because by suppressing an opinion he actually changes the future he peered into meaning that he is engaged in a never ending loop.

I think the simple solution is to leave judgement of the utility of an opinion to the common man, he has made this judgement many millions of times in his existence and while he has made mistakes things generally turned out OK. Conversely, relying on the judgement of those in power on major decisions has rarely worked out well, at least for the common man.

What I particularly object to is the idea that some opinions should be "crushed" ( your Link to the Economist in post#81. That way puts us back into the hands of those in power.

.
Yes the term "dictatorial" does imply a certain dictatorial state of mind which undermines the argument. Rationality is not dictatorial, it is just and natural.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#90 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:03 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:41 am
boing wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 am
GG
All opinions are not equal and only the deluded, the lost or the fool believes that all opinions are equal and that every hare brained theory opinion or simply a lie, should be given equal currency and credence!]
"All opinions are not equal". Pray tell me who has the wisdom, or folly, to rank opinions by validity. This must indeed be an extraordinary being with the ability to look back in time, see the present state of mind of a billion people and also see into the future to judge the effect of his decisions. Of course, the latter is a tricky bit because by suppressing an opinion he actually changes the future he peered into meaning that he is engaged in a never ending loop.

I think the simple solution is to leave judgement of the utility of an opinion to the common man, he has made this judgement many millions of times in his existence and while he has made mistakes things generally turned out OK. Conversely, relying on the judgement of those in power on major decisions has rarely worked out well, at least for the common man.

What I particularly object to is the idea that some opinions should be "crushed" ( your Link to the Economist in post#81. That way puts us back into the hands of those in power.

.
Yes the term "dictatorial" does imply a certain dictatorial state of mind which undermines the argument. Rationality is not dictatorial, it is just and natural.
I meant the term "crush" does imply a certain dictatorial state of mind.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#91 Post by boing » Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:31 pm

GG

Of your choice of words I agree that "rational" decisions are the most appropriate. Logic and science, though of great value, are seen by the average man, in crisis, as being all very well but not really applicable to the needs of their everyday life.

A "rational" approach allows acceptability at the expense of perfection. I think you could say that rationality is logic and science leavened by humanity or, perhaps, reality.

In terms of free speech it is really difficult to see how opinions could be artificial moderated, we have seen enough examples in history of where trying to crush certain beliefs has only driven them underground which makes them even more dangerous. It seems to me that all opinions should, while they are merely expressed verbally, be permitted since at this stage the rationality of the common man will decide which grow and which wither. If a certain off-beat opinion is supported by a large part of the population it is time for the ruling classes to pay careful attention because they are being given a warning. If any off-beat opinion leads to anti-social behaviour it should be suppressed but, but, only under the law with the same law applying to all men, great and small, equally.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#92 Post by Bob » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:57 pm

Freedom of speech is a great thing.

....... Freedom to call someone's speech "bollox" is an even greater thing
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#93 Post by boing » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:15 pm

Absolutely true Bob. Of course, blindly holding an opinion which you are unable to sensibly support or criticising the opinion of another without being able to support your own viewpoint is also "bollox". Calling someones speech bollox and then explaining why you feel that way advances the discussion, calling someone's speech bollox and continuing to shout the word to drown discussion is hooliganism.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#94 Post by barkingmad » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:46 pm

Time for reflection, methinks?

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/0 ... d-say/amp/

For censorship one can always hop across to T O P for some unreasonable irrational suffocation? :-?

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#95 Post by boing » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:01 am

The first reasonably recorded victim of the suppression of free speech was of course Socrates, convicted of denying the Gods and, presumably hence, corrupting youth. For these crimes he was, famously, required to drink a potion containing hemlock. Thus the wise Greeks removed from their ranks the first great philosopher whose opinions consequently lived on for 2400 years.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#96 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:25 am

boing wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:01 am
The first reasonably recorded victim of the suppression of free speech was of course Socrates, convicted of denying the Gods and, presumably hence, corrupting youth. For these crimes he was, famously, required to drink a potion containing hemlock. Thus the wise Greeks removed from their ranks the first great philosopher whose opinions consequently lived on for 2400 years.

.
While I am sympathetic to Socrates, we must remember that he was also not necessarily a supporter of rule by those who were not worthy by dint of ability and was accused by some of being anti-democratic. Plus ca change it seems. I certainly am a believer that " those with the relevant knowledge and skills need to be elected".
Socrates was condemned to die by a popular assembly of citizens. It appears that the philosopher was very unpopular in his native city. It must be remembered that most of our knowledge about Socrates comes from his disciples such as Xenophon. Among Athenians, he was not popular. The philosopher was someone who had an ambiguous attitude towards the city-state’s democracy. He supported democracy but he was concerned about power being given to those who were not worthy of it. He wanted those with the relevant knowledge and skills to be given power, which is reminiscent of the arguments proposed by backers of aristocratic or oligarchic rule. Socrates had been friendly with some of the ‘Thirty Tyrants’ who had seized power in a coup and who had persecuted democrats. However, he did not actively support this authoritarian government. Socrates' somewhat anti-democratic sentiment came at a time when many Athenians feared for their popular form of government.
www.dailyhisttory.org

Talking of proto fascists, did Socrates' teacher Plato tick all the boxes?

https://worthypatterns.substack.com/p/p ... to-fascist
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#97 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:56 am

boing wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:54 am
GG
All opinions are not equal and only the deluded, the lost or the fool believes that all opinions are equal and that every hare brained theory opinion or simply a lie, should be given equal currency and credence!]
"All opinions are not equal". Pray tell me who has the wisdom, or folly, to rank opinions by validity. This must indeed be an extraordinary being with the ability to look back in time, see the present state of mind of a billion people and also see into the future to judge the effect of his decisions. Of course, the latter is a tricky bit because by suppressing an opinion he actually changes the future he peered into meaning that he is engaged in a never ending loop.

I think the simple solution is to leave judgement of the utility of an opinion to the common man, he has made this judgement many millions of times in his existence and while he has made mistakes things generally turned out OK. Conversely, relying on the judgement of those in power on major decisions has rarely worked out well, at least for the common man.

What I particulary object to is the idea that some opinions should be "crushed" ( your Link to the Economist in post#81. That way puts us back into the hands of those in power.
Your argument about the opinion of the common man, while worthy sounding, is a recipe for disaster. Let me suggest that the common man is unlikely to be able to give any sensible commentary on many facets of the modern world, let alone be informed by the follies of the past and one perforce has to listen to the cognoscenti, such as scientists, the educated etc. or in other words, the experts and the intelligent who are uncommon (just look at the Gaussian curve).

The common man tends to make banal choices predicated upon expediency and often untrammeled by principle, morality or information. Maybe you are an Abnegite boing but, if so, I despise your average solution. ;)))

Null P

H. L. Mencken was right when aid wrote that eventually "the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." Why not eat *****, because 1 billion flies can't be wrong?

So much for the common man say I.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#98 Post by boing » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:51 am

Pish, we have a current perfect real-world example, you yourself comment on the failures of the cognoscenti who are supposed to be so expertly dealing with the Covid problem. We have seen chaos, lies, poor judgement, avarice, foolish waste of resources on a scale never before seen in the World. Through lack of knowledge and inability to lead the cognoscenti of the World are now seen as foolish, indecisive and contemptible. If you need proof read the posts on this very site.

Yet the common man endures, he deals with the difficulties thrown in his path by your cognoscenti, he keeps the wheels turning and the population fed. The common man is he who keeps the electrical power on to power the hospitals, he actually makes the vaccines that are supposed to save our population, he keeps our communications working so that your glorious cognoscenti can screw up yet again.

When the final disaster strikes the World please go with your cognoscenti to their ivory towers, I'm sloping off to a nice little farming community in the wild somewhere where my skills will be appreciated and we survive while you are trying to find matches to burn the scientific papers to keep warm.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#99 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:36 am

boing wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:51 am
Pish, we have a current perfect real-world example, you yourself comment on the failures of the cognoscenti who are supposed to be so expertly dealing with the Covid problem. We have seen chaos, lies, poor judgement, avarice, foolish waste of resources on a scale never before seen in the World. Through lack of knowledge and inability to lead the cognoscenti of the World are now seen as foolish, indecisive and contemptible. If you need proof read the posts on this very site.

Yet the common man endures, he deals with the difficulties thrown in his path by your cognoscenti, he keeps the wheels turning and the population fed. The common man is he who keeps the electrical power on to power the hospitals, he actually makes the vaccines that are supposed to save our population, he keeps our communications working so that your glorious cognoscenti can screw up yet again.

When the final disaster strikes the World please go with your cognoscenti to their ivory towers, I'm sloping off to a nice little farming community in the wild somewhere where my skills will be appreciated and we survive while you are trying to find matches to burn the scientific papers to keep warm.

.
Sadly you appear to look at life through the wrong end of a municipal drainpipe! There is no helping or saying anything to those like you! Avaunt you atavistic worm-faced creature of the right and don't forget your stock of baked Armageddon tinned beans, your spare arrows and women's nylons with which to trade with fellow, book and scientific paper burning, populist loons like yourself! =))
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#100 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:01 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:36 am

Sadly you appear to look at life through the wrong end of a municipal drainpipe! There is no helping or saying anything to those like you! Avaunt you atavistic worm-faced creature of the right and don't forget your stock of baked Armageddon tinned beans, your spare arrows and women's nylons with which to trade with fellow, book and scientific paper burning, populist loons like yourself! =))
I was going to post a Lynard Skynard video of "Simple Man" boing but I shall restrain myself. :p

You, of course, being a simple, homespun man of the people.... ;)))
Though you remain
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Your destination remains
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