The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#201 Post by admin2 » Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:05 pm

An interesting exercise in HTML! I'll pick my way through it best I can

I did answer this morning, and that was NOI
On behalf of boac who asked the question - thanks. So the banning of RT is not a restriction on free speech. Interesting.

But my post mysteriously disappeared
Switching now to admin2, nothing to do with me, so 0/10 for that conspiracy theory. Judging by the way your post was composed, I'm amazed this one arrived in place!

Certainly the banning score, or threats of same, appear to have increased compared with the tally over the years since the forum was started.
Given you have no access to the site records, an incorrect but understandable conclusion. I have no record of short-term bans like yours, but all the 'permanents' were quite a while ago and as far as I know other 'leavers' over the years have 'quit' for other discontents.

Regarding Plum’s “holiday”, I fail to see why he has been sent to the O-N Gulag Archipelago for whatever ‘sins’ he has allegedly committed.
Correct. You are not expected to 'see'. Anyway, it is only a Gulag weekend break. I fully expect a barrage of inane PMs on Monday again providing his flight is not delayed.

a discourse more intellectual and mature.
We live in hope. I do sense a touch of hyperbole in your paragraph,

You two admins at the sharp end will have the actual stats, but it is my perception over the last year that the conversation and the variety and quantity of views, postings and posters has decreased noticeably.
Correct. Significantly. The very reason why the 'new management' asked for inputs from members to see if we could stem the slide. We have had a good few - and it is worth re-visiting them, including yours.
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I would suggest that the current O-N course is on a heading for extinction and possibly a rethink as to speed and direction are overdue?
Correct. Various posters , ex-A, om15 (for two) have indeed been saying this for months and we know that several hard-won 'new joiners' have decided they did not like what they saw and left. The aim is to correct the slide. Per ardua ad astra as someone once said.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#202 Post by jimtherev » Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:49 pm

Until recently, I thought we were all mature adults here and nobody would blanch at a little coarse language... A little bit of AngloSaxon to emphasise or express extreme displeasure is one thing, but larding every sentence with an expletive for the Mod to delete is pretty juvenile.
In fact some of the exchanges of late have been just that - juvenile - more redolent of the school playground than a place where we can discuss stuff of interest to us.
And when members say something like 'I've had enough, I'm off' it's time to ask people whether it's right to ask an 'offender' to wind it down. Most people with three or four exceptions, agreed this was appropriate.
If people were able to behave like mature adults we wouldn't be having this sort of conversation.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#203 Post by FD2 » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:35 am

Jim - agree totally about swearing! It has become quite normal amongst many sections of society to use swear words in place of 'proper' English but I still contend it should no take the place of a constructive argument or discussion. We all swear in exasperation at some of the film of man's inhumanity and brutality to man on TV but that's where the language should stay - in the home.

Also some people can't help having lower IQs (not talking about those on this site ;))) ) just as others can't help being born with looks which don't conform to the playground's expectations, so get insulted. X(

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#204 Post by Dushan » Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:01 am

I can't believe that anyone came here and left because of foul language. I could be wrong, but until you convince me otherwise, that's how I feel.

I know of several people who were members, and long time contributors, who left because they were tied of being admonished for their "right wing" views which were diametrically opposed to the site owner's.

The irony is that the reason this site was formed is because Rob the Mod at TOP was banning/deleting users and posts willy nilly and we all had enough of that nonsense. So we came here with a promise that none of it will happen here. It's a free for all. Well, here we are TOP 2.0.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#205 Post by Seenenough » Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:15 am

Dushan wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:01 am

I know of several people who were members, and long time contributors, who left because they were tied of being admonished for their "right wing" views which were diametrically opposed to the site owner's.
Always admonished by the same handful of members often in drunken tirades.

Dushan,I'm with you.Slasher,Siseman,Ben There and others ,all gone and others of us barely hanging in and trying to give it a chance.

Brexit and Donald Trump and the myopic never ending attack on both I feel was very detrimental to the forum.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#206 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:14 am

Seenenough wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:15 am

Brexit and Donald Trump and the myopic never ending attack on both I feel was very detrimental to the forum.
None so blind as those who will not, or choose not to, see Seenough. There can never be anything but eternal opprobrium of such dismal, dubious characters.

One could argue that the continual boosting of such people represents an abuse of the freedoms kindly permitted by sites such as this.

From this man's perspective, your comment above is about as useful as saying "the myopic never ending attack on Vladimir Putin (for example) I feel was very detrimental to the forum".

You will note that I didn't fall into the Godwin's Law trap!

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#207 Post by prospector » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:51 am

"None so blind as those who will not, or choose not to" exactly, there are many who do not see the world the way you do, surely that is the intent of this forum to learn what and how other people digest different facts.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#208 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:16 am

prospector wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:51 am
"None so blind as those who will not, or choose not to" exactly, there are many who do not see the world the way you do, surely that is the intent of this forum to learn what and how other people digest different facts.
prospector, I agree that people should be free to express their opinions and that includes the freedom to endorse people like the ones I noted in my post above, but the continual boosterism, endorsement of counterfactual narratives and the attempts to drown out the opinions of those whose opinions don't accord with theirs, however subtly done, also raises questions about the "freedom of speech" too.

Freedom comes with rights, but also implies duties, whatever one's opinions.
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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#209 Post by OFSO » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:23 am

An excellent last sentence, Mr GG and one that all too many people forget.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#210 Post by admin2 » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:49 am

This topic is in the wrong place, but best finished here in the hope we can return to the original topic.
Dushan wrote:I know of several people who were members, and long time contributors, who left because they were tied of being admonished for their "right wing" views which were diametrically opposed to the site owner's.

The irony is that the reason this site was formed is because Rob the Mod at TOP was banning/deleting users and posts willy nilly and we all had enough of that nonsense. So we came here with a promise that none of it will happen here. It's a free for all. Well, here we are TOP 2.0
Not wishing to burst your little bubble of imagination, Dushan, but I should point out that since Alison ditched you as her first forum 'Mod' there have been 9 permanent 'bannings' of members, and for good reasons. Please Note you are still here!

Regarding "views which were diametrically opposed to the site owner's.", two points.

There WILL BE no such thing as a site 'owner', although of course the whole domain and hosting still currently belong to Alison and she has absolute control. Ultimately the site will 'belong' to its members and the aim is to run it as a 'democracy' which is why, at present, there is a group of your peers sitting in 'judgement'. At the moment (while things get settled down) only I have admin powers. It may be necessary (probably so) to grant mod powers to others in the future if the site grows as we would wish. Despite the current 'wrinkle' I can just about cope with the help of the others.

Secondly, it is not our intention to restrict so-called 'free speech' as long as the basic rules are observed.

'So, as they say, let's get on with it and stop whinging. Despite Plum's 'difficulty' in working out what is acceptable language and what isn't (a very simple task I'm sure my grandchildren could manage), the rules are SIMPLE and not markedly different to other sites.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#211 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:56 am

OFSO Unfunny but "the freedom of someone stops where the freedom of the other starts" is one of the few things I remember from High School.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#212 Post by boing » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:51 pm

"the freedom of someone stops where the freedom of the other starts"

An interesting old bromide but the realty is that where freedom stops is increasingly defined as the freedom you are permitted before you conflict with the wishes of the individual that controls law enforcement and, in some cases, the military. If you need references think of Canada, Russia and Australia not to mention the countries that have previously acted in this manner as a matter of course. These corrupt individuals are quite happy to tip the balance of freedom in the direction of their supporters to gain votes and loyalty and as rewards.

Once the freedom of the population to adopt measures of effective self-defense is removed the incursions on freedom of the population are instigated in rapidly more obvious ways and these methods are frequently approved by the sheep in the population. How the heck could any Canadian with an ounce of brains think that sequestering someone's bank account and hence livelyhood without legal authority could be a fair deterrence to a legal demonstration? How could Australian police forcefully arrest a little old lady for refusing to show her vaccination papers? Do the sheep not see that it is only a matter of time before they join the ranks of the persecuted?

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#213 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:13 am

boing, daily we need to have our freedom restrained to protect the society. For instance an old lady falling sick (because she chose not to get vaccinated without any scientifical knowledge) would cost the society money hence she limits my freedom as I would need to pay more taxes to support the NHS (of my country) - alternatively she must accept not to get any treatment and stay in a tent away from the rest of the people as not to spread the virus. If a strike and a demonstration mean people down-line are losing their income I expect the government to stop the demonstration to help people go on with their live. Similarly I think the right of some people to welcome any immigrant wants to live in my country because it fits with the agenda of the welcome group, I think their right should be limited very strictly.

It seems we are heading to an area of subjective definitions here: the lady sees her freedom not to get vaccinated, I see my right not to pay more taxes. There laws and if we don't like them we must lobby to change it not just break them.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#214 Post by boing » Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:57 pm

RiS'
You think more deeply than most people, for that congratulations.

I examine some of your statements without necessarily taking a personal position on them. The first claim I question is "we need to have our freedom restrained to protect the society". I would argue that it is good that we should volunteer in a cooperative manner to do things to protect our society but the argument that this should be an automatic and mandatory reaction is flawed.

To take an obvious and rather crude example that is easy to understand is to ask the question whether we should take actions to prevent Darwinian selection. Darwinian selection theory suggests that species change, or at the extreme appear of disappear, in response to environmental changes. We have been provided with a recent example of the implications of this theory by Covid. This argument could be bluntly stated as "should we fight Covid medically to permit the survival of the whole World population or should we let Covid take its course and leave behind only the naturally resistant survivors?". Nobody can deny the individual pain and suffering caused by Covid but in real terms has fighting it with every tool we have available been a wise choice?

To play Devil's Advocate and again I say these are arguments not necessarily my personal opinions.

The population of the World is already too high. Have we really protected society by maintaining this population?
Is creating a population that is subject to contagious disease without continual mandated medical intervention really protecting society?
Do we have a real reckoning about how the mandatory fight against Covid caused detrimental effects in other areas of the society we are trying to protect?
Does a nation gain by saving its population with mandates but destroying its society economically and socially?
Do we really protect society by mandating any action simply because it supports the status quo?
Does one little old lady living alone threaten society if she is not vaccinated? How is the bug supposed to get to her and how is she supposed to pass it on?

So many questions, so little time, and each question creates a dozen offspring. The likely final position taken by most people is "Do what it takes to save my neck and to Hell with the future" which unfortunately applies to much of our thinking.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#215 Post by Boac » Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:34 pm

boing wrote:Does one little old lady living alone threaten society if she is not vaccinated? How is the bug supposed to get to her and how is she supposed to pass it on?
You are pre-supposing she is in solitary confinement are you not, or does she perhaps need to eat and meet others?

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#216 Post by OFSO » Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:53 pm

[media][/media]Boing, I have been told more than once that i see things in black and white and don't accept the shades of grey in between. This is why I don't have any problem in answering your rhetorical questions, and as a realist I'd have no problem putting my decisions into effect.

Through health care and especially geriatric care, through putting the preservation of life before everything else we have created a monster.

There was a recent account in the FT of a mother whose child of 3 became autistic, uneducationable, and extremely violent, attacking everyone it saw. It had to be placed in a special facility with 24 hr care. It eventually died at the age of 35 from an epileptic attack. That's what you get when you prioritise 'life' above everything else.

Your wrote very well there, by the way. Much appreciated for a concise summing-up.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#217 Post by boing » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:24 pm

I know that if an older relative of mine put themselves into voluntary isolation, or even if it was an older neighbour, I would respect that as their free choice and make suitable provision for them and I would not need to be mandated to do it and that includes considerations of health. If anyone thinks this is a logistical problem they should not be allowed out of their house alone under any circumstances.

As a practical matter many thousands of people worked out how to protect elderly contacts whether they were vaccinated or not.

What I think bothers me more after consideration is that RiS feels that the cost and responsibility of looking after one of our senior citizens is an onerous load without considering that the average tax payers support millions of people as a result of taxation who are way better off than they are.

"For instance an old lady falling sick (because she chose not to get vaccinated without any scientifical knowledge) would cost the society money hence she limits my freedom as I would need to pay more taxes to support the NHS (of my country)"

What about the, literally, millions of well heeled people who got free vaccinations while filing minimal tax returns? You paid for them.

In the US they have realised that they paid out $136 billion (or was that 163) in fraudulent unemployment benefits during Covid. A really good return on your tax payments !!!

Freedom is the choice to decide your own path between birth and death. Other people make their own choices. The choices made are free choices hopefully within the context of moral law and you alone can never be held entirely responsible for you choices. The conflict created by choices nearly always reduces to the interaction between two people both of who need to screw up to make a choice really bad.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#218 Post by boing » Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:27 pm

OFSO, thank you. I was born with the curse of seeing problems but not necessarily answers.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#219 Post by boing » Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:03 pm

OFSO,
We are getting a little off topic here but freedom of choice is involved. This is somewhat similar to your story.

Relatives of mine conceived a child somewhat late in life and somehow they were informed that Down's Syndrome (I think) was likely and they were given THE choice. They decided to keep the child.

As with your story they looked after the child wonderfully for over thirty years. During that time they not only looked after their own child but tirelessly started a foundation and support groups for other people in the same situation. They succeeded to the extent that they were introduced to the Queen at a Buck House garden party.

The point I am offering is the amazing changes that can be created by making a free decision even though it would have arguably not been the correct one and you could not guess its results. These relatives carried out an action, they took responsibility for that action, they made a decision which weighed on the rest of their lives. BUT, they improved the lives and gave hope to thousands of other people who were suffering in a similar situation.

If there is a Heaven there was doubt a party for the three of them when they arrived. Bless you Marje and Dick and Susan.

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Re: The Price of Free Speech : Unaffordable?

#220 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:09 pm

boing

"What I think bothers me more after consideration is that RiS feels that the cost and responsibility of looking after one of our senior citizens is an onerous load without considering that the average tax payers support millions of people as a result of taxation who are way better off than they are.

boing

"For instance an old lady falling sick (because she chose not to get vaccinated without any scientifical knowledge) would cost the society money hence she limits my freedom as I would need to pay more taxes to support the NHS (of my country)" "

It has been a longish day so I apologize in advance for language mistakes and feel free to raise any issues you have with my answer as you just did and I thank you:

I am all for paying the taxes (in general) that support older people and those in need - preferably my nationals (in 2015 a huge number of illegal immigrants arrived in my country taxing the health system, getting support for housing, legal support to appeal and re-appeal for a rejected asylum application) etc while middle class people kept paying more and more taxes for less and less support) or people with whom my country has a mutual support agreement. Bad things happen to people and they are to get decent help.

My issue is when a person put him/herself in an avoidable risk transferring the costs of their accident to the society. A person who makes a choice that would put him in harm's way creates a problem for the others. The lady (by now quite famous) who refuses to get vaccinated (just because she thinks the vaccine has chip that would control her thoughts) might actually steal a ICU bed from a young father with a health condition that might cost his life - a bed that would have been available if she were vaccinated. Much like once a moto rider driving very aggressively past me in an high (and I think sans helmet) did have an accident few km ahead of my creating a big traffic jam. Why should i suffer because he enjoyed driving to the accident. I think in TOP there are discussions after SAR accidents as people blame the person behaving recklessly for initiating the chain of events leading to the accident.

Obviously I am not sure where to place the limit - should smokers be treated for lung cancer since they choose to smoke? I am not sure about it.


"the average tax payers support millions of people as a result of taxation who are way better off than they are" You have a point there: currently people smart enough not to declare all their income will receive energy crisis allowance while people with much less income fully disclosed will receive nada. Obviously there are ways to correct that but all people vote.

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