Who pays tax, and who is paid from tax?

[AtomKraft]

Right now, the big 'furlough' schemes have transformed many income tax payers, into receivers of state money.

In my view, those paid by tax in the U.K. were always too great in number, and were being supported by a diminishing number of true tax payers.

Now, that's not to diminish the useful work done, or credit earned, by many of these folk- but surely if you fall into the following categories, and even though there is a deduction for income tax/ National insurance on your payslip you are a recipient of tax money, not a payer of it.

So:
The entire staff of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.
Teachers.
Soldiers, sailors, airmen, the Coast Guard. All of the MoD.
The doctors and nurses, the cleaners and penpushers, the bureaucrats, of the NHS.
Pensioners, at least those in receipt of the State Pension.
Those on working families tax credit.
Those on Jobseeker's Allowance or other benefits, including universal credit.
Everyone who works for the Council, so Social Workers, planning people, the binmen,
Everyone who works for the Government.
The Civil Service, the Foreign office including all our Diplomats, both in the UK and overseas.
The Police, the Fire Brigade,
And now, add in the furloughed..

All of these groups, and I've probably missed a few, are being supported by those who actually work and pay tax.

For how long can the list of beneficiaries increase, before the load on those paying becomes unbearable?

[TheGreenGoblin]

Not much longer.

Just had my pockets lightened by the tax man on account, i.e. on money not yet earned by me based upon estimates of income earned last year... and I also note the parlous state of earnings in my pension pot, in the current market, and believe I might invest in a sawn off shotgun all the better to undertake the life of crime I am going need to survive when the fecking system collapses just as I come up to retirement....

At least with a shotgun I can shoot myself when all is said and done.

[Pontius Navigator]

AK, remember the hand that giveth also taketh away.

You missed off Government pensioners as well.

But of the monies I receive from my benevolent Government that also take back 20%. Should I chose to spend a lot of what is left they take another 20% or 12% if I take out an insurance policy, 5% for heat and light, a % if I chose to fly elsewhere, about 35% for my last aborted holiday. A big chunk when I buy a car more when I tax it and yet more if I drive it.

If I chose to bank it they also double dip in to it if my bank pays me interest.

What remains goes in profit and wages, business rates, national insurance, VAT and tax paid by the businesses that I patronize. At very small amount will be remitted to China to pay for goods purchased.

I would like to follow a Government pound paid to a Government recipient. I think the amount that leaks out is very small.

[Capetonian]

The entire staff of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.
Teachers.
Soldiers, sailors, airmen, the Coast Guard. All of the MoD.
The doctors and nurses, the cleaners and penpushers, the bureaucrats, of the NHS.
Pensioners, at least those in receipt of the State Pension.
Those on working families tax credit.
Those on Jobseeker's Allowance or other benefits, including universal credit.
Everyone who works for the Council, so Social Workers, planning people, the binmen,
Everyone who works for the Government.
The Civil Service, the Foreign office including all our Diplomats, both in the UK and overseas.
The Police, the Fire Brigade,

That is what we pay tax for.

Not all teachers are paid from tax - there are private schools, which are very expensive usually and generate tax revenue. Without a state education system the country would be in a worse state than it is.

Soldiers, sailors, airmen, the Coast Guard. Everyone who works for the Council, so Social Workers, planning people, the binmen,
Everyone who works for the Government. The Civil Service, the Foreign office including all our Diplomats, both in the UK and overseas. The Police, the Fire Brigade All of the MoD. The doctors and nurses, the cleaners and penpushers,
Are you doing a Jeremy Corbin and saying we should dispense with them?

[om15]

Pensioners, at least those in receipt of the State Pension

I paid National Insurance contributions for 49 years and seven months to fund my state pension. I suspect the State may come out on the winning side.

[ian16th]

Pensioners, at least those in receipt of the State Pension

I paid National Insurance contributions for 49 years and seven months to fund my state pension. I suspect the State may come out on the winning side.

Really?

I started paying younger than most, at 15 years and 2 months, but I received a letter from the then DSS, saying I had qualified for the maximum and needn't pay any more. I'd never missed a weeks payment. This was when I was about 60, can't remember exactly.

If I'd paid till my 65th birthday it would have been 49 years and 10 months.

[AtomKraft]

Cape.
No, I'm not saying we should dispense with them.
Just pointing out that their numbers are ever-increasing, and the numbers of those getting the bills ever-decreasing.

You mentioned privately employed teachers. Correct, they are not in the pay of the State.

As for Government pensioners- no. They may deduct a little tax from your pension, but the entirety of it is paid from tax.

Example.
Let's say I'm a Fireman, (or a state pensioner, a nurse, a soldier etc.) and each month my gross pay is £1000 but HMG keep £300 for tax & NI. So I get £700 to spend...on other things that are also taxed....but let's overlook that for a minute.

Now, UK Govt passes a new law.
"From now on, all Firemen don't have to pay tax or NI"

Next month they send me my £700 ...and no deductions.

I'm no better or worse off.
Neither is my employer.

So clearly, I wasn't paying anything before, because if I was, now that I'm exempt tax, I ought to be a little better off, and my employer a little poorer.
In fact neither of us is better or worse off!

When you take the utterly groaning burden of paying for all these folk, and then add on the recently acquired 'Covid' related expenses.....and remember, it's only non-state employees that get to pay for everything, then one thing becomes very clear.

Self employed, high-earners, businessmen and other private sector people, are in for the pumping of their lives by HMRC.

[AtomKraft]

NI is another galloping rip-off.

PAYE people pay it their entire working lives.

Self employed people, businessmen and those who employ an accountant, pay it until they have paid the max number of years, after which there is zero point in paying, because you will receive nothing more in return. So they stop!
It's quite legal to do so.

Is the max reached after 30 years???

Anyway, after that you are chucking money down the toilet- and only folk with no choice are still making contributions.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Self employed and feel that I am being pumped in a bad way right now...

[Rossian]

As a former member of HM's armed forces for 35 years as aircrew and 8 years as a reservist.
I paid tax for all of it. And then when it came to pension time my flying pay wasn't pensionable and that was a large-ish part of my take home salary so we lost out there and it is taxed. My state pension is taxed and the small private pension I was able to buy out of my saved salary is also taxed.
I'm irritated my the implication in the OP's post that I and my ilk have been some sort of freeloaders.

The Ancient Mariner

[TheGreenGoblin]

As a former member of HM's armed forces for 35 years as aircrew and 8 years as a reservist.
I paid tax for all of it. And then when it came to pension time my flying pay wasn't pensionable and that was a large-ish part of my take home salary so we lost out there and it is taxed. My state pension is taxed and the small private pension I was able to buy out of my saved salary is also taxed.
I'm irritated my the implication in the OP's post that I and my ilk have been some sort of freeloaders.

The Ancient Mariner

I am sure all that post here have paid their tax and dues etc. and, I speak for myself, I believe that the issue is not a question of entitlement to such dues, but, rather, how the system will work for future generations in the light of current economic climate, nay crisis, an ageing population requiring care etc. etc.

Let it be said that I am a supporter of a safety net for the population, the NHS and care for our elderly and disabled etc. In fact I would be, for all my complaints, be prepared to pay even more for such if the government could demonstrate the efficacy of a rational system without the catastrophic waste and general inefficiency that seems to be the provenance of recent governments.

[AtomKraft]

You know Rossian, I understand your feelings....

I was also in the Forces, and worked for the local council too.

I'm not denigrating anyone, and I put that in the OP.

But who the hell do you think was paying your salary when you were in the Air Force?

If the RAF gave you a quid, then kept 25p, then maybe you felt you'd paid 25p tax.
If they'd just sent you the 75p, it would have been 'six or two threes' would it not?

[ian16th]

I've got to admit that as a Boy Entrant on 2 shillings and 6 pence (12.5p) a day, in 1952, I did not pay any Income Tax.

I only started paying Income tax upon being promoted to Leading Aircraftman. From my pay of 10 shillings (50p) a day, I paid 1 penny Income Tax.

Upon promotion to Senior Aircraftman, my pay went to 11 Shillings (55p) a day and my Income Tax increased by 100%, to 2 pence a day.

[AtomKraft]

Guys.
It's not about what you did or what you do. People employed by the state do masses of vital stuff.
Thanks!

I was in the Army. It wasn't a wealth generating sector. Our direct contribs' to the UK GDP was zero.

We were an ESSENTIAL overhead.

For those who cannot follow this, imagine if we ALL worked for the Government.

Who would send us our money? And where would they get it from?

[Smeagol]

Gosh! I seem to have spent most of my working life supporting you chaps.

[Seenenough]

Self employed and feel that I am being pumped in a bad way right now...

Move over here Professor ,although we pay quite a bit of tax we get lots back for it.

[TheGreenGoblin]

Self employed and feel that I am being pumped in a bad way right now...

Move over here Professor ,although we pay quite a bit of tax we get lots back for it.

Bit long in the tooth to consider a move to the USA now seenenough. Was offered a job there back in my halcyon daze but my English better half wasn't keen on the notion.

Good mate of mine has just sold everything up and moved to Florida with his better half. Seems to be happy and the weather is good, so good luck to him. Trust you and yours are well.

[om15]

In my last ten working years I worked for myself, a Limited Company, VAT registered, paid myself a modest salary, drew Directors dividends and made the absolute maximum pension contributions allowed (40K per annum). I earned around two or three times the salary that I would have doing a similar job in industry and paid much less NI and income tax. The benefits of working for yourself can be quite substantial when you claim for that which you are allowed, really wish that I had done it ten years earlier.
I don't receive any pension for my modest 9 years in the RAF, which is fair enough, so all in all I think that I have put more in the pot than I have taken out.

[Pontius Navigator]

AK, I see where you are coming from. However think of a totalitarian state, everyone is on a State funded tit, some high on the hog and some sucking a hind tit.

It works and actually may well work at the bottom better than a capitalist system.

[compo]

All money derives from government, or government agents. Try printing your own and see what happens.
Tax is merely a device for limiting the amount of money circulating in the system.