Black Lives Matter Bollocks

[G-CPTN]

Was he getting it or discarding it?

[FD2]

So which candidate can make the most political capital out of this sad incident?

[boing]

PP

The uproar over here is not just the 7 shots in the back of Jacob Blake, but the fact that the 17 year old kid who killed two and wounded one, was "peacefully" arrested.

Would you have felt better if the police had induced a gunfight with the kid in a crowded place? By this stage he had surely realised he had screwed up badly and he was resigned to surrender peacefully so why should the police have done anything other than "peacefully" arresting him?

There was not. Now, back to the question. why 7 shots? Are the police so poor at aiming or are their guns ineffective - or does the guy just need putting on trial for attempted murder?

Several people here need to understand police training and the physical factors involved on someone who has been shot.

The energy of a 9mm Luger, a common police cartridge, is about 350 ft/lbs. For comparison, the energy of a 303 rifle is about 2000 ft.lbs. ALL practical handgun rounds are quite low powered, they are by no means guaranteed or even expected to stop a grown man with one shot.

Despite what the movies show and what people seem to believe placing a shot precisely when both the shooter and the target are moving is actually quite difficult. We know the officer fired seven shots, I have not yet seen a report on how many actually hit the target. Naturally, if the officer thought he might be missing the target he would keep shooting.

When the target is fully dressed, as opposed to the nice white paper target you are used to, it is very difficult to know where the bullets are impacting so you cannot assess how effective the hits are going to be.

If the opponent is drugged, which seems to be common in these cases - see Floyd, one round may not stop him so if he is still moving the police will still be shooting.

The only way a person is stopped instantaneously is by a hit to a critical part of the nervous system, the spine or brain, both difficult targets on a moving person. The usual cause of death is actually loss of blood either internally or externally which can take a while to occur and in this time a person is still dangerous.

There is no such thing as shoot to disable. Even if the intent of the shooter was to disable the difficulty of making a precise shot will probably means the bullet will hit somewhere more vital.

Seven shots is about half a magazine so the officer did, in fact, shoot as many times as seemed wise and then he stopped and he did not "empty his magazine" as one report claimed.

The vast majority of US police officers NEVER draw their firearm in anger in their career. Is it really fair to criticise an officer for getting an adrenalin rush when this occurs? Were you never a bit jumpy on your first thunderstorm encounter IFR?

For budget reasons, such as defunded police departments, police firearms training is not what it could be. Usually the six monthly qualification does not require a particularly high standard but it is deemed adequate by the powers that be. Most instructors would prefer more one-on-one time to bring some individuals up to speed but it is not going to happen. Minority hiring does not help, I know of one police department that re-equipped to a lower powered issue firearm because trainees of lighter frame and with smaller hands could not handle the original weapon.

There is a lot more but this list will give you enough points to hyperventilate over, and yes, I am close enough to this to know what I am talking about so cut the dumb right-winger garbage.

,

[Boac]

Oh dear.

[PHXPhlyer]

Boing:
I generally agree with much of what you say regarding training and state of mind, but...

"When the target is fully dressed, as opposed to the nice white paper target you are used to, it is very difficult to know where the bullets are impacting so you cannot assess how effective the hits are going to be."

Except in this case the shootee had on a form fitting white tank top.
Shots were at point blank range.
Apparently, all shots struck him, including one to the lower spine, resulting in paralysis from the waist down.
Just watched the police press conference, not very forthcoming four plus days out from the shooting.
Waiting report from Wisconsin State Police...I believe they are conducting the investigation of record.

PP

[om15]

For those few remaining viewers that might still watch Channel 4 a special evening is planned, "black take over" night, where all the people involved will be black people, possibly quite talent less, I wonder what the advertisers may think of an audience of about seven people.

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe it was after when they went to check the car.

So who put it there?

Mr Blake,the shot man,told the investigators that he had a knife in his possession. The police found the knife in the drivers footwell. ( BBC report )

I read an earlier CNN report, no knife.

[PHXPhlyer]

Here's the article that I cited but couldn't find:
Why police shoot so many times to bring down a suspect

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/us/why-p ... index.html

Why police shoot so many times to bring down a suspect
By Scottie Andrew, CNN

Updated 1:14 PM ET, Wed August 26, 2020
Police shootings: When is deadly force justified?
NOW PLAYING
Police shootings: When is deadly force justified?
CNN

00:18
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02:13

(CNN)When police believe a suspect could harm or kill them, they're usually trained to fire as many gunshots as it takes to bring that suspect down.

The shooting itself almost always lasts only seconds. But questions about whether the number of shots officers fired was warranted -- or whether that suspect posed a deadly threat to an officer in the first place -- can persist long after that suspect is wounded or killed.
Since George Floyd's killing in May, police have had to answer to the public as protests over police brutality and systemic racism continue nationwide.
Wisconsin police shoot a Black man as his children watch from a vehicle, attorney says
Wisconsin police shoot a Black man as his children watch from a vehicle, attorney says
This week, the spotlight is on police in Kenosha, Wisconsin, for the shooting of Jacob Blake, a 29-year-old father of three who was shot seven times while his children watched from his car. Blake is in serious condition at a local hospital, his family told CNN.
Law enforcement departments have long fielded questions about why officers fired as many shots as they did at a suspect. Police shootings aren't a science -- they're usually high-stress situations where adrenaline takes over an officer's response -- but some factors explain why officers shoot as many times as they do.
Police shoot until they've 'terminated a threat'
The "textbook answer" is that officers fire until they've terminated a threat, according to Seth Stoughton, an associate professor at the University of South Carolina School of Law who studies policing.
Officers use deadly force on a suspect they perceive to be an imminent threat of death or bodily harm to the officers or others. In training, police are told to use force until that person no longer presents a threat, Stoughton said.
Why do police shoot to kill?
Why do police shoot to kill?
The number of shots it takes to "terminate a threat" depends on the circumstances.
"Sometimes firing multiple shots makes complete sense," said Stoughton, a former officer. "Sometimes firing multiple shots or the sheer volume or shots than officers fire doesn't make sense."
If officers are using deadly force, they're usually trained to not pause their fire and to shoot in quick succession -- taking a break to assess the suspect they're shooting at could give that suspect time to harm them or others, he said.
And legally, the number of shots officers fire often doesn't matter, he said: Under the Fourth Amendment, officers must have had reason to believe the suspect they fired on was a threat who could've killed them or caused great bodily harm. The court determines whether the officer was reasonable in making that assessment, not whether the number of shots fired was reasonable.
Multiple officers often shoot at once
Police shot a man after a high-speed chase. It's the 50th police shooting in Georgia investigated by GBI this year
Police shot a man after a high-speed chase. It's the 50th police shooting in Georgia investigated by GBI this year
High shot counts may be attributed to a phenomenon called "sympathetic fire" or "reflexive fire," which occurs when one officer fires on a suspect, so one or more officers with them start firing, too, even if they haven't immediately perceived the suspect to be a threat, Stoughton said.
This can create confusion among the officers, though, he said: They may mistake another officer's shots for the suspect firing shots at them, which could cause them to continue to shoot needlessly.
They miss most shots
Shooting accuracy varies based on how close an officer is to a suspect -- but data shows that they're often not accurate shots.
A 2019 study of the Dallas Police Department found that in more than 130 shootings, officers struck their targets 35% of the time. Most of their shots were misses. And a 2006 analysis, which examined a number of major metropolitan police department shootings throughout the late '80s and early '90s, found that hit rates rarely exceeded 50%. Some departments, including the New York Police Department in 1990, hit only about 23% of targets.
They're often stressed and not counting their shots
The anxiety and adrenaline of a high-stress deadly force incident may cloud officers' judgment, said Cedric Alexander, a police training consultant and 39-year law enforcement veteran.
Two police officers in Georgia put on leave after shooting at minors
Two police officers in Georgia put on leave after shooting at minors
This can lead to some officers firing an unwarranted number of rounds. Many officers don't recall how many shots they fired when interviewed immediately after a shooting, he said.
"Some officers will testify or give a statement immediately after that they fired three to four shots when they actually fired 10 to 11 shots," Stoughton said. "In high-stress, adrenaline, heart-pounding moments, an officer is not counting their shots."
The point of training is to prepare officers for those high-stress incidents where they may be required to use deadly force. But an officer who perceives that they're in immediate danger "may just keep pulling the trigger until their brain catches up with them," Stoughton said.
They're using a quick-firing weapon
The type of firearm an officer uses may impact the number of shots they fire. If they're using the typical semi-automatic weapon, Alexander said, they may have as many as 15 rounds in their gun that they can fire in quick succession.
In many cases, their training is lacking
Many officers resort to using firearms if they're not comfortable apprehending a suspect with physical force first, Stoughton said. In circumstances where officers don't know whether a suspect is armed, an officer's lack of confidence could cause them to fatally shoot an unarmed person.
States require more training time to become a barber than a police officer
States require more training time to become a barber than a police officer
"We should not overlook the role of fear in officers' use-of-force decision-making," Stoughton said.
Officers are trained in use of force more than almost any other skill, Stoughton said. But they often don't receive as much training in physical apprehension or "empty hand techniques" that could prevent a loss of life.
"(That lack of training) can lead them to escalate to higher-force options, rather than rely on those physical skills if they were more confident in them," he said. "The more comfortable an officer is with physical apprehension skills, the less they need to escalate to intermediate weapons or a firearm."

PP

[Pontius Navigator]

PP, illuminating but if you chopped out all the repetition I might be inclined to read the totality of your posts.

Sorry

[boing]

pp

I just hit the laundry list of problems, the final facts in this case will be exposed.

I take your point about the T-shirt but there are still confusing factors. When someone is moving the shirt gets stretched across the body. It is quite possible that an original bullet entry point into the T-shirt will be moved over another part of the body by movement of the target such as twisting the torso so a solid hit to the chest appears to be a hit to the shoulder. This is certainly not a defense and it may not happen but it shows that even the most rational idea, which you correctly raise, needs to be examined when someones career and jail time are on the line.

Way back the Supreme Court ruled that officer's actions should be judged by the situation existing for the officer at the time not as they put it "with 20/20 hindsight". Does this mean that officers should not be responsible for their actions, certainly not? What it does mean is that the facts of the case are eventually going to be established by a court of experts not by a bunch of rioters who "know" immediately the officer is guilty.


.

[boing]

If you are going to tell a police officer you have a weapon be very careful how you do it.

Traffic stop...

"Officer I have a gun." Instant panic.

Try... with both hands on the steering wheel and in view.

"Officer I have a permit to carry a gun. The gun is in a holster on my belt. What would you like me to do?"

Removes the stress. Simply saying I have a gun/knife is asking for tension but people do it and certainly saying F-off you're profiling me does not set a good tone..

In many States a permit to carry is added to your driving license record and so, indirectly, to your car ownership. So the officer knows if you may be legally armed or not. He will probably be relieved if you have a permit because very, very, few crimes are committed by legal permit holders because they have background screening.

.

[Pontius Navigator]

Boing, you may remember the SAS take down of the IRA terrorists in Gibraltar. There was some angst about the number of shots fired, basically the body kept moving so he kept shooting.

I did a course with his debriefing officer. The main purpose of the debrief was to put the relevant facts down in writing.

"She was up for it, she was wearing sussies" was not deemed to be relevant.

[PHXPhlyer]

PN:
Apologies for the repetition.
I copied the article and cut a lot of stuff out but did not re-read what was left.
I'll do better. I promise.

PP

[boing]

PN

Don't we complicate things.

.

[prospector]

Have not, as yet, heard or seen much of a protest about these senseless killings, is it because black killing white is not newsworthy??

https://www.foxnews.com/us/south-caroli ... e-driveway


South Carolina college student, stepfather fatally shot in head on front lawn over fender bender: reports

[PHXPhlyer]

First I've heard of this. It sucks no matter who does what to whom.
At least they caught the guy.
I'm sure he is a fine, upstanding member of the community, loves his mamma and goes to church every time the doors are open.
Surely, this was just a simple misunderstanding.
NOT!

PP

[llondel]

For budget reasons, such as defunded police departments, police firearms training is not what it could be. Usually the six monthly qualification does not require a particularly high standard but it is deemed adequate by the powers that be. Most instructors would prefer more one-on-one time to bring some individuals up to speed but it is not going to happen. Minority hiring does not help, I know of one police department that re-equipped to a lower powered issue firearm because trainees of lighter frame and with smaller hands could not handle the original weapon.

I very much doubt if recent calls to defund police departments had any effect on the quality of training. Speaking generally rather than about specific departments, if they didn't waste money on all those military toys they could invest in way better training to the point where they'd never need those toys. Not nearly so cool though.

[llondel]

Have not, as yet, heard or seen much of a protest about these senseless killings, is it because black killing white is not newsworthy??

https://www.foxnews.com/us/south-caroli ... e-driveway


South Carolina college student, stepfather fatally shot in head on front lawn over fender bender: reports

The newsworthy part about some killings is the way the perpetrators are known but seem to escape justice. If the guy killed someone and was arrested and charged then it probably barely causes a ripple on the news surface outside the local area, simply because of the level of gun violence in the US. The outrage about the 17yr-old is as much that the appearance was that he seemed friendly with the police and might not have been charged with anything. The authorities probably managed to reduce the level of tension by announcing fairly quickly that they'd arrested him.

[prospector]

How long before these video's of the shooting are ever shown on American news, the bloke that has been charged with murder is very obviously defending himself. The person who was shot in the arm was in possession of a pistol and stated publicly that he should have shot the teenager on the ground, and it is quite apparent that that was what he was trying to do. That must be self defense on the part of the young man charged with murder???.

https://www.rt.com/usa/499259-kenosha-v ... aign=Email

[boing]

Llondel,

The first thing is that police departments do not usually spend much money on those "military toys". The Fed Govt has surplus equipment some of which is offered to government entities first and if not supplied to them the items are sold to the public. Some items cannot be sold to the public at all so these items are given to interested government entities such as police departments so that personnel carrier you see was probably a freebie. The cargo containers converted to offices and store rooms are really popular items.

Calls to defund police depts. do not effect the current situation but they may effect future training. You must remember that police departments are budgeted in the same way as other State, county or city departments. The police department has very little influence on the budget decision because the people who set the budget have their own community and political priorities. As of now this may be a moot point because many departments are having recruiting problems, not surprising with the general attitude against the police especially in bigger cities.

The training is a tough one. A major problem is training ranges. As cities expand pre-existing ranges that were once well outside the city are now surrounded by housing development. You have 10,000 people calling for the range to be closed even though it was there before the houses, just like airfields. If a new range is required planning permits can be almost impossible to get. At one range I know the police department wanted to cut down some trees. First city inspector says great, cut 'em because those are a non-native species. Shortly the second inspector arrives, looks in the trees and sees bird's nests. Hold on he says, you can't cut the trees until we have assessed the effect on wildlife and that will take a year. Third inspector arrives and says the trees need to be cut down because they unsafe and likely to drop a branch on someone.

Last time I checked it had been two years and the city had still not decided what should be done. If I told you the location was the North Bay just past the San Rafael Bridge you would not be surprised.

.