The Liberal thread...

[TheGreenGoblin]

Controversial only in a reactionary place and state of mind where chaos, fear, uncertainty, paranoia and doubt reigns.

A place for all those of a progressive, moderate, temperate, or even a liberal persuasion who wish to scuba in the balmy (not barmy) think tank of good and reasonable ideas.

As a starter I present John Rawls

[TheGreenGoblin]

Taking Rawls' theory of ignorance (in this case of race) its n'th degree for comedic purposes!

[TheGreenGoblin]

Beyond the pale... the outsider...

Alan Watts on the basis of Freedom...



Well worth listening to even if one's isn't "into" Eastern mysticism or stuff like that.

[AtomKraft]

In my view, Gob, being 'Liberal' means permitting things.

These days, those who claim to be 'Liberal' spend a lot of their time trying to get folk who don't agree with them to shut up.

So, 'cancel culture' and 'no platforming' for example are never advocated by conservatives, only by 'liberals'.

It seems to me that the 'liberals' are the opposite of liberal!

[John Hill]

It seems to me that the 'liberals' are the opposite of liberal!

What country are you in?

[AtomKraft]

Kazakhstan.

[Seenenough]

These days, those who claim to be 'Liberal' spend a lot of their time trying to get folk who don't agree with them to shut up.

....and to tell them they are stupid and uneducated.

[John Hill]

The word 'liberal' in a political context has different meanings in different countries.

[Seenenough]

The word 'liberal' in a political context has different meanings in different countries.

Well then what is the difference between Kiwi Liberals ,Uk Liberals and America Liberals?

[John Hill]

Google is your friend...

[Dushan]

The word 'liberal' in a political context has different meanings in different countries.

Well then what is the difference between Kiwi Liberals ,Uk Liberals and America Liberals?

None. They are all commie lefties.

[bob2s]

Dushan, Oz is an exception to your rule,the Liberals here are the partty of the right whilst the Labour party are the loony left.

[llondel]

I suspect to him it's commies and extreme commies.

[Dushan]

I suspect to him it's commies and extreme commies.

Yes, that’s how I look at it. Similar to Canadian Liberals and NDP, although, these days, it is hard to tell which of the two is more socialist/communist.

[TheGreenGoblin]

There are some interesting comments here about how the meaning or the definition of the term liberal is mangled according to locale, political affinity, local or cultural dispensation, historical context or even just the the prejudices of the definer etc. and we haven't even touched upon neoliberalism (as in relating to or denoting a modified form of liberalism tending to favour free-market capitalism) .

I suggest that we define "liberal" within the context of a philosophical and historical framework and use John Gray's definition of liberalism and the forms of liberalism as a starting point. I make no excuse for this proposal in the sense that his beliefs in this area closely accord with my own prejudices or, well thought out beliefs!

[Seenenough]

"I make no excuse for this proposal in the sense that his beliefs in this area closely accord with my own prejudices or, well thought out beliefs! "

Ok you are a Liberal ,which of course you are free to be.( Hopefully you notice that I am not telling you that you are wrong ,stupid or uneducated and that you should change your beliefs.)

[AtomKraft]

In my opinion, the big difference between liberals (and lefties) and so called right wingers (conservatives) is this:

Lefties attempt to improve things by changing society. They try to bend the entire state to their way of thinking. This immediately mires them in politics.

Righties try to improve themselves, and so improve things one person at a time. They don't try to bend the state to their way of thinking as they realise it's not so easy to change it. Thus they are less involved in futile politics, but try to advance themselves.

Given how hard it is to collectively change a society, it's no wonder that liberals and lefties are so ticked off all the time.

I'm not a liberal. But I'm much more liberal about which views are acceptable than many 'liberals.

[TheGreenGoblin]

"I make no excuse for this proposal in the sense that his beliefs in this area closely accord with my own prejudices or, well thought out beliefs! "

Ok you are a Liberal ,which of course you are free to be.( Hopefully you notice that I am not telling you that you are wrong ,stupid or uneducated and that you should change your beliefs.)

Nor am I telling you to do anything or to prosletyse you Seenenough, although I do encourage further reasoned discussion as should be de rigueur for all those of good will.

Another liberal minded soul who I admire was John Dewey...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey

Dewey and his daughter Jane went to South Africa in July 1934, at the invitation of the World Conference of New Education Fellowship in Cape Town and Johannesburg, where he delivered several talks. The conference was opened by the South African Minister of Education Jan Hofmeyr, and Deputy Prime Minister Jan Smuts. Other speakers at the conference included Max Eiselen and Hendrik Verwoerd, who would later become prime minister of the Nationalist government that introduced Apartheid.Dewey's expenses were paid by the Carnegie Foundation. He also traveled to Durban, Pretoria and Victoria Falls in what was then Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and looked at schools, talked to pupils, and gave lectures to the administrators and teachers. In August 1934, Dewey accepted an honorary degree from the University of the Witwatersrand. The white-only governments rejected Dewey's ideas as too secular. However black people and their white supporters were more receptive

[Bob]

It's hard having a discussion when a common point of reference can't be agreed
As we all know Americans have a definition of Liberals that is quite different, almost opposite to most all the rest of the world and of course their whole measure of what is left and right is shifted well to the right of just about any other nation's.

Don't forget appreciation of God and guns in equal measure is considered a reasonable balanced view over there

[Bob]

"Righties try to improve themselves, and so improve things one person at a time. They don't try to bend the state to their way of thinking as they realise it's not so easy to change it."


Aah the statement of absolutes
Think about that absurd comment for a minute, perhaps consider the NRA and the Jewish Lobby, last time I checked both were extreme right wing and both spend huge amounts of cash and/or time influencing Government