Climate Crisis!!!!

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Dushan
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#401 Post by Dushan » Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:41 pm

You can't cause it to happen any more than you can prevent it from happening. Just look at something like a volcano eruption or a hurricane. Do you think that there is a way to stop or start either of those by some man-made activity? Both have been happening for thousands of years, long before industrial revolution or even recorded history.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#402 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 pm

There is a scientific argument (whch I don't have a link for it) that climate change causes stronger hurricanes.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#403 Post by Dushan » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:34 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 pm
There is a scientific argument (whch I don't have a link for it) that climate change causes stronger hurricanes.
Maybe it does, or maybe the climate changes because the hurricanes are stronger.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#404 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:38 pm

Dushan wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:34 pm
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 pm
There is a scientific argument (whch I don't have a link for it) that climate change causes stronger hurricanes.
Maybe it does, or maybe the climate changes because the hurricanes are stronger.
You and I will meet up again, this time in Namibia, my friend, and we will look at the mist and not understand the weather... :))

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#405 Post by Undried Plum » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:18 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:23 pm
There is a scientific argument (whch I don't have a link for it) that climate change causes stronger hurricanes.
More energy.

It's why "100 year" and "30 year" storms at sea happen more than once every 100 or 30 years.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#406 Post by barkingmad » Thu Apr 28, 2022 9:47 pm

Meanwhile, back in a densely occupied housing estate of tower blocks somewhere in the future Nirvana, if you are able to hear yourself above the cacophony of tired heat pumps and their clapped out forced circulation fans, someone has finally realised they've all been sold a lemon and are very angry as a result;

"The Government-funded Energy Saving Trust has produced a report on a field trial of heat pumps entitled Getting warmer. Mark Ellse has kindly provided a translation of the key findings from the executive summary into plain English.

1. “The performance values we monitored in the sample heat pumps varied widely; the best performing systems show that well-designed and installed heat pumps can operate well in the U.K.”

Translation: Most heat pumps operate poorly in the U.K. Rare exceptions are adequate but only if the systems themselves are well-designed, installed and operated.

2. “The sample of ground source heat pumps had slightly higher measured system efficiencies than the air source heat pumps. The ‘mid-range’ ground source system efficiencies were between 2.3 and 2.5, with the highest figures above 3.0.”

Translation: Ground and air source are equally unimpressive. Though ‘mid-range’ ground source system efficiencies were between 2.3 and 2.5, a third of the systems had efficiencies below 2.0, leading to inevitably high running costs.

3. “The system efficiency figures for the sample of ground source heat pumps were lower than those monitored in similar European field trials.”

Translation: Take no notice of cited efficiencies that are high. Real, measured efficiencies are much lower.

4. “The ‘mid-range’ of measured system efficiencies for air source heat pumps was near 2.2 and the highest figures in excess of 3.0.”

Translation: Real efficiencies are about 2.0, with the worst having efficiencies as low as 1.2. You’d be better off using electric fires.

5. “Heat pump performance is sensitive to installation and commissioning practices.”

Translation: We’ve said it before: even tiny installation errors turn heat pumps into nightmares.

6. “The householders in our field trial sample reported good levels of satisfaction with both space heating and hot water provision. There was no significant difference between users’ satisfaction with ground and air source systems.”

Translation: Even with enthusiastic early adopters, 13% were dissatisfied because of high running costs. But nearly half the social housing tenants were dissatisfied despite the (free) benefits of much improved insulation which came with their (free) heat pumps. Their reason: nightmare running costs.

7. “Heat pump performance can vary considerably from one installation to another and customer behaviour is a variable that was shown to impact performance.”

Translation: Heat pump performance depends on consumer behaviour as well. Only able and diligent users have a chance of being satisfied with system performance.

8. “Many householders said that they had difficulties understanding the instructions for operating and using their heat pump. This highlights a need for clearer and simpler customer advice.”

Translation: Following on from 7, heat pump systems are a nightmare to understand and operate. Quite likely most householders will be incapable of getting satisfactory results.

9. “A comparison between carbon emissions from heat pump installations and electric or gas heating (based on the U.K. Government’s current predictions for grid decarbonisation) shows that a well installed heat pump can lead to carbon savings, both at present and over the lifetime of the pump.”

Translation: Only well installed heat pumps can lead to carbon savings when you consider both the running and capital costs. Heat pumps may lead to carbon reduction but any improvements will be marginal and not at all certain.

10. “The field trial shows that heat pumps have achieved reductions in heating bills for some customers – especially those whose installations are off the gas grid and are therefore replacing heating fuels such as electricity, LPG and oil.”

Translation: Heat pumps are always very much more expensive to run than mains gas. Even against full-price electricity or LPG, savings are by no means certain."

The report was produced in 2010, so the technology may have improved since......

But don't hold your breath, masked or not. =))

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#407 Post by talmacapt » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 am

As someone who has used a ground source heat pump in Finland since 2002, I can say it is not noisy.

I replaced the original 2000 heat pump in 2019 and can confirm that technology has improved greatly in that time.

The new system is noticeably cheaper to run.

The size (of the new box) is about 60% that of the old.

Maintenance consists of unscrewing and washing the inlet filter twice per year, a five minute job.

I would highly recommend it.

I do, however, think that the UK would benefit by moving to underfloor heating systems, rather than the usual "radiator under the window" set up, before the installation of heat pumps.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#408 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 pm

This "underfloor heating system" is something I like to see in use. I bet is very effective to keep one warm by keeping the feet warm

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#409 Post by Smeagol » Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:55 pm

talmacapt wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 am

I do, however, think that the UK would benefit by moving to underfloor heating systems, rather than the usual "radiator under the window" set up, before the installation of heat pumps.
Excellent idea for new builds but decidedly impractical for retro-fit installations and that, unfortunately, means most properties!
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#410 Post by Dushan » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:42 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Apr 29, 2022 8:52 pm
This "underfloor heating system" is something I like to see in use. I bet is very effective to keep one warm by keeping the feet warm
Not good at all. Takes forever to change the desired temperature, your feet are always burning.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#411 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:17 am

Thanks I thought it was a good idea

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#412 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:34 am

What did the Romans do for us? I am not being "hypocaustic", but the Romans were "hot" (ahem) on underfloor heating systems many centuries ago but, even they, in fact, had been beaten to the technology with the earliest underfloor heating system being noted in what is now "modern" day North Korea, with records showing evidence of such heating systems +- 2000 years ago!



Tis well worth a trip to Bath to view the Roman hypocaust there, drink a few beers and watch a rugby match as well.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#413 Post by OFSO » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:31 am

#406. What a load of bollovks. Heat pumps were in use when I lived in Germany in the 1980/1990s. Well established technology. Yes, maintenance can be costly but look at what I've paid out in repairs for my gas boiler, new eight years ago. Biggest problem with ground-sourced heat pumps was killing off plants.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#414 Post by G-CPTN » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:40 am

The nearby Roman remains include underfloor heating - which might have been to keep the contents of the granary dry.

Having grown up within 5 miles of this Roman camp, and visiting many times during my childhood, the items there became 'normal' to me.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#415 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:46 am

G-CPTN wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:40 am
The nearby Roman remains include underfloor heating - which might have been to keep the contents of the granary dry.
So maybe for more beer, and panem et circenses!

Enough to warm the cockles of one's heart if not the balls of one's feet! :-bd

Good engineers those Romans...
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#416 Post by talmacapt » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:08 pm

Quite agree with you Smeagol.

I am fascinated by your comments Dushan.

Yes, if you want a large rapid change in temperature then it is not for you.

I set my rooms, public to 21c and bedrooms 17/18c each with an individual thermostat, at the start of winter and the system keeps the set temperature even when it is -35c outside.

The floor does not get too hot to touch and the water circulation temperature stays at about 25c except on the coldest days when it may get to 28c.

The suspended ground floor acts like a storage heater designed to minimise heat loss downward.

It is about 30 cm thick with a metre void underneath.

The system works similar to controlling a pressurised cabin, that controls the escape of air whereas I control the escape of heat by effective insulation.

I have an air circulation system which extracts heat from outgoing air to warm the cold air entering the building, think of how hot oil is used to warm fuel before it enters an aero engine (on the VC10 it was called a "fuel cooled oil cooler").

Instantaneous heating is provided by a large "log gobbler" in the lounge.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#417 Post by Dushan » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:23 pm

The problem is not so much with getting “ Instantaneous heating” as much as when you want to turn it off, or lower the temperature. We have a heated floor in the bathroom which is always kept at 28°C, but you only spend a short period of time there.

My experience with heated floors is that the feet were always very hot, it took a long time (12 - 24 hours) to lower the desired temperature, and even raising the temperature took longer than convenient.

My best experience is with hot water pipes, with aluminum fins, running along the windows and outside walls, augmented with forced air heating, with vents at ceiling, which in the summer acted as air conditioning. The two systems were independent of each other so in transitioning seasons you could have a small amount of heating at night, and air conditioning during the day.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#418 Post by G-CPTN » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:54 pm

What price ducted air heating?

I bought a house with non-working underfloor electric heating that I converted to radiant electric panel radiators controlled by zoned timers and individual thermostats - which was extremely user-friendly.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#419 Post by k3k3 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 6:05 pm

Our house in Germany had underfloor heating and we liked it, so when we moved back to the UK we had it installed the the 1930s house we bought it Devon, and we like it here too. It was done by a company called Nu-Heat in Honiton.

My sister in Sussex lives in a village near Petworth with no gas, her house was heated by old storage heaters, two years ago she had an air source heat pump system installed and is as happy as a pig in the proverbial.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#420 Post by Dushan » Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:23 pm

G-CPTN wrote:
Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:54 pm
What price ducted air heating?

I bought a house with non-working underfloor electric heating that I converted to radiant electric panel radiators controlled by zoned timers and individual thermostats - which was extremely user-friendly.
Depends what part of the world you are talking about. In North America, fairly easy, as most houses are built that way anyway as it seems to be the cheapest way to install the HVAC system.

The dual setup I mentioned before is mostly found in older multi dwelling buildings. Ever buildings have ducted hot/cold air system with a self contained heat pump in each unit. The heat pump gets its heat from centrally heated water that is piped to the unit and in summer that same loop, is used to shed heat extracted form the air in the unit.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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