Climate Crisis!!!!

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Boac
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#541 Post by Boac » Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:44 pm

Still not clear on what basis you 'accept' global warming if you do not accept the figures? What is/are your chosen data?

I'd prefer to leave the 'human-induced' debate out of this since the changes we are seeing in climate are enough to cause extreme concern for the way we live in the world. The pressures on land and the damage caused by more extreme weather need to be addressed instead of knickering around with the 'human' debate and we need to have plans to adjust our way of life. Previous major changes in climate have led to species extinction, and we are not immune.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#542 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:02 pm

I'm going to disagree with just about everything you've just said.
But I like to start each New Year in a good mood, so I'll get back to you in about a week. :D
Happy New Year!!

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#543 Post by TheGreenAnger » Fri Dec 30, 2022 10:14 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:44 pm

I'd prefer to leave the 'human-induced' debate out of this since the changes we are seeing in climate are enough to cause extreme concern for the way we live in the world. The pressures on land and the damage caused by more extreme weather need to be addressed instead of knickering around with the 'human' debate and we need to have plans to adjust our way of life. Previous major changes in climate have led to species extinction, and we are not immune.
Totally ad idem with this position.
My necessaries are embark'd: farewell. Adieu! I have too grieved a heart to take a tedious leave.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#544 Post by Boac » Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:27 am

Likewise HNY to you, Fox. It certainly needs debating, but I'm not, however, sure I understand why debating the issue would adversely affect your mood, but fair enough. See you next week.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#545 Post by John Hill » Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:14 pm

My problem with the debate about human cause vs natural process lies with the idiots who pretend that if natural we cannot do anything about it.
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#546 Post by llondel » Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:27 pm

John Hill wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:14 pm
My problem with the debate about human cause vs natural process lies with the idiots who pretend that if natural we cannot do anything about it.
There are some things we can't do much about. Mt St Helens dumped a lot of stuff into the atmosphere and dropped global temperatures a bit. It could happen again, presumably with a different volcano. A good solar flare might warm things up a bit, a meteor strike could kick up a lot of dust even if it landed in Siberia.

The sun is a mildly variable star, one of the theories against the current rise (or at least a chunk of it) being caused by humans is that we're on an upswing in the solar cycle. History does show variations that would back up such an argument, it's just a case of whether mankind has done enough to push things over the edge before it would otherwise have happened anyway.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#547 Post by John Hill » Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:30 pm

Rain is a natural phenomenon and we can not do much to control it however we can fix a leaky roof.
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#548 Post by llondel » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:12 pm

John Hill wrote:
Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:30 pm
Rain is a natural phenomenon and we can not do much to control it however we can fix a leaky roof.
Too much rain results in floods and landslides, at which point the roof may not be much use, and may turn out to be a liability, depending on immediately prior actions.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#549 Post by John Hill » Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:06 am

Best then do not fix the roof and sit outdoor in the rain, just to be on the safe side you know.
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#550 Post by barkingmad » Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:06 pm

"Rain is a natural phenomenon and we can not do much to control it however we can fix a leaky roof."

"Too much rain results in floods and landslides, at which point the roof may not be much use, and may turn out to be a liability, depending on immediately prior actions."

On the rare occasions folks look askance at me pouring the gin, I'm happy to point out that water is the most dangerous liquid on Earth if one looks at the number of excess deaths caused by our lack of respect for it! [-X

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#551 Post by barkingmad » Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:24 pm

Ooooh dear yet again, the stats are indicating that the barbecuing of the planet may still not be predicted by real science, unless it is "The Science", that academic subject discovered to great acclaim in Spring (Northern Hemisphere version) 2020?

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/01/04/ ... ng-at-all/

In case you haven't got the message, here's a reference containing aviation content and pictures, so please brace yourselves for potential bad news about Glowball Warming;

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/01/02/mor ... st-summer/

During the last few days on my bicyce in Northeast England, I have returned home with numbed toes after 90 minutes hard pedalling with nearly 1,000' elevation gain, so the much trumpeted recent figures for a warmer winter are not borne out by my 'sensors'... :-? :((

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#552 Post by Karearea » Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:46 pm

Nothing new under the sun:

Dialogue from the 1960 film The Apartment:
Mrs. Lieberman: Some weather we're having.

C.C. Baxter: Yeah.

Mrs. Lieberman: Must be from all that mishegaas at Cape Canaveral.
And with the morn, those angel faces smile...

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#553 Post by barkingmad » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:14 am

More doom and gloom for the climate hysterics;

“Net Zero Will Lead to the End of Modern Civilisation, Says Top Scientist.

A damning indictment of the Net Zero political project has been made by one of the world’s leading nuclear physicists. In a recently published science paper, Dr. Wallace Manheimer said it would be the end of modern civilisation. Writing about wind and solar power he argued it would be especially tragic “when not only will this new infrastructure fail, but will cost trillions, trash large portions of the environment, and be entirely unnecessary”. The stakes, he added, “are enormous”.

Dr. Manheimer holds a physics PhD from MIT and has had a 50-year career in nuclear research, including work at the Plasma Physics Division at the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory. He has published over 150 science papers. In his view, there is “certainly no scientific basis” for expecting a climate crisis from too much carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in the next century or so. He argues that there is no reason why civilisation cannot advance using both fossil fuel power and nuclear power, gradually shifting to more nuclear power.

There is of course a growing body of opinion that points out that the Emperor has no clothes when it comes to all the fashionable green technologies. Electric cars, wind and solar power, hydrogen, battery storage, heat pumps – all have massive disadvantages, and are incapable of replacing existing systems without devastating consequences.

Manheimer points out that before fossil fuel became widely used, energy was provided by people and animals. Because so little energy was produced, “civilisation was a thin veneer atop a vast mountain of human squalor and misery, a veneer maintained by such institutions as slavery, colonialism and tyranny”.

This argument hints at why so many rich, virtue-signalling celebrities argue not just for Net Zero but ‘Real’ Zero, with the banning of all fossil fuel use. King Charles said in 2009 that the age of consumerism and convenience was over, although the multi-mansion owning monarch presumably doesn’t think such desperate restrictions apply to himself. Manheimer notes that fossil fuel has extended the benefits of civilisation to billions, but its job is not yet complete. “To spread the benefits of modern civilisation to the entire human family would require much more energy, as well as newer sources,” he adds.

The author notes that the emphasis on a false climate crisis is becoming a “tragedy for modern civilisation”, which depends on reliable, affordable and environmentally viable energy. “The windmills, solar panels and backup batteries have none of these qualities,” he states. This falsehood has been pushed by what has been termed a climate industrial complex, comprising some scientists, most media, industrialists and legislators. Furthermore, he continues, this grouping has “somehow” managed to convince many that CO2 in the atmosphere, a gas necessary for life on Earth, one which we exhale with every breath, is an environmental poison.

In Manheimer’s view, the partnership among self-interested businesses, grandstanding politicians and alarmist campaigners, “truly is an unholy alliance”. The climate industrial complex does not promote discussion on how to overcome this challenge in a way that will be best for everyone. “We should not be surprised or impressed that those who stand to make a profit are among the loudest calling for politicians to act,” he added.

Perhaps one of the best voices to cast doubt on an approaching climate crisis, suggests the author, is Professor Emeritus Richard Lindzen of MIT, one of the world’s leading authorities on geological fluid motions:

What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a dangerous planet-destroying toxin. It will be remembered as the greatest mass delusion in the history of the world – that CO2, the life of plants, was considered for a time to be a deadly poison.
Much of Dr. Manheimer’s interesting paper debunks many of the fashionable nostrums surrounding politicised ‘settled’ climate science. It is an excellent read. Discussing some of the contrary opinions that debunk obviously false claims, he says it is “particularly disheartening” to see learned societies make definitive claims when so much contrary information is readily available. He points out that over the last 10,000 years, the Earth has almost certainly been warmer. There have been warmer and colder periods, just like today.

To find the off-narrative information, even Google can be used, Manheimer says – though he does note that the company warns it will not provide information on “claims denying that long-term trends show that the global climate is warming”.

The full paper may be viewed here:- - - https://ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/j ... ew/0/47745

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#554 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:04 pm

After a week...
BOAC, to answer your question about warming, data which is unbiased by recording site surroundings, such as satellite temperatures, show a clear warming trend. I have not heard any scientist disputing global warming, only what is causing it.

This article is quite a good summary
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/01/09/ ... g-is-real/

You mention increases in extreme weather - there are none.
No bigger hurricanes, no more tornadoes, no more rain, no more anything.
The media pumps up the fear and hides the facts. Here's an article on that
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/01/09/ ... ropaganda/
Last year was forecast to be higher than average for both hurricanes and tornadoes. There was a flood of articles in the Spring saying so.
I'm not just referring to the article. I read these things myself in the media.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brun ... -1.6470635
Never happened. 2022 Accumulated Cyclone Energy was 22% below average. There were no hurricanes at all in August.
But importantly, there's no articles admitting it didn't happen, still less wanting to explore why. There won't be any admission next time that they were wrong last time.

However, there are human pressures on land, and they do need acting upon, but they aren't anything to do with climate.

We cannot ignore the human-induced thing however. If we are to use limited resources to combat real problems and better prepare for the future as a species, then we must focus on the real problems, not imaginary ones.
Human-induced climate change is not proven, and the arguments currently used to justify it are false. Every cent, bead of sweat, and brain electron movement expended on it is a waste compared to the real problems, like rainforest destruction for open cast mining, and pollution of water sources by heavy metals. You know, the kind of things done to produce batteries for electric vehicles and the latest iPhone.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#555 Post by PHXPhlyer » Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:41 pm

Mexico cracks down on solar geoengineering, forcing startup to pause operations
On Friday, the government of Mexico issued a statement that it plans to “prohibit and, where appropriate, stop experimentation practices with solar geoengineering in the country.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environ ... -rcna66527

The tiny startup Make Sunsets, which had been experimenting with releasing sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere to reflect sunlight in order to cool the earth, said Wednesday it would cease operations for the time being and review its approach after the Mexican government cracked down on solar geoengineering.

The idea of releasing aerosols into the atmosphere to cool the earth has been around since the 1960′s, but it had largely been relegated to science fiction until recently, as the urgency of climate change has become more apparent. The White House is currently coordinating a five-year research plan to study the idea, which is colloquially known as “solar geoengineering,” and the quadrennial U.N.-backed Montreal Protocol assessment report for the first time included an entire chapter it.

Luke Iseman, a serial inventor and the former director of hardware at Y Combinator, believed all of that research was not happening fast enough. So he started tinkering with releasing sulfur dioxide particles into the atmosphere with balloons, raised venture capital to fund the startup, and brought on co-founder Andrew Song to manage sales.

Make Sunsets was planning to launch three latex weather balloons that would release anywhere between 10 and 500 grams of sulfur dioxide in January. But many industry watchers criticized its plans for being hasty and lacking sophistication.

On Friday, the government of Mexico issued a statement that it plans to “prohibit and, where appropriate, stop experimentation practices with solar geoengineering in the country.”

The statement said, “The opposition to these climatic manipulations is based on the fact that there are currently no international agreements that address or supervise solar geoengineering activities, which represent an economically advantageous way out for a minority and risky for the supposed remediation of climate change.”

The lack of an international governance structure surrounding global geoengineering was a big concern for industry watchers in regards to what Make Sunsets was doing.

In a mea culpa blog post published on Wednesday, the startup acknowledged it had barged forward.

“We appreciate the Mexican government’s concern for protecting communities and the natural environment and support their call for scientific expertise and oversight of climate intervention activities. We also appreciate their concern for national and local engagement and regret that we had failed to take this into consideration sooner,” Make Sunsets said.

Brayton Williams, a co-founder of San Mateo-headquartered venture capital firm BoostVC, who previously told CNBC the firm invested $500,000 in Make Sunsets, told CNBC the startup was “definitely not shutting down.”

“When you work with super early stage startups you get very accustomed to roadblocks and naysayers. Not sure we have seen a success yet that didn’t have to overcome massive hurdles early in the process,” Williams told CNBC. “Onwards!”

Kelly Wanser, the executive director of SilverLining, an organization promoting research and governance of climate interventions, supports the move by the Mexican government.

“The Mexican government is right to halt irresponsible activity and emphasize the importance of scientific examination and science-based governance for solar climate intervention,” Wanser said in a statement shared by a press officer. “Irresponsible activities and unfounded claims are an example of why society needs publicly supported research, scientific assessment, and the expansion of governance mechanisms like the Montreal Protocol, to help ensure a safe climate.”

Both Wanser and Make Sunsets both indicated their support for thorough and detailed study of sunlight reflection technologies.

That’s because sunlight reflection technology would be one of the fastest and cheapest options for bringing down the temperature of the globe, and there’s already evidence it works: The 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines released thousands of tons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, temporarily lowering average global temperatures by about 1 degree Fahrenheit, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

But it’s not known whether the damage caused by sunlight reflection technology — possibly including damage to the ozone layer, increased respiratory illness, and acid rain — could be worse than the future effects of global warming.

“We agree that there are no alternative technologies that replace the need to reduce emissions to remediate climate change. We also see that the negative and unequal impacts of climate change are growing, and we hope to encourage the world to consider whether technological interventions have the potential to help,” Make Sunsets wrote in its blog post.

Wanser echoed that sentiment. “Increasing the reflection of sunlight from the atmosphere is one of the only means that scientists have identified to significantly reduce global warming within the next few decades. Understanding its risks and benefits through research is critical for the world’s most climate-vulnerable people,” she said in a statement.

PP

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#556 Post by Karearea » Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:35 am

From the NBC article quoted above:
The 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines released thousands of tons of sulfur dioxide into the stratosphere, temporarily lowering average global temperatures by about 1 degree Fahrenheit, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.
Not necessarily a good thing: this event was attributed to the effects of the Pinatubo eruption -
“Christchurch teetered on the brink of disaster yesterday as the worst snowstorm in 30 years first paralysed the city, then caused widespread flooding,” The Press reported on August 29, 1992.

“The storm, billed as the worst natural disaster for decades, caused havoc throughout the region. Thousands of stock have perished, while the snow closed schools, roads, the courts, shops, businesses, and Christchurch Airport.”

There were rumours that newborn lambs were only surviving 20 minutes in the blizzard conditions, but a farmer quickly corrected that: “Twenty seconds is more accurate. The lambs are dropping and dying immediately.”
It was later reported that more than 1 million sheep had died. ...
1992: The big snow
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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#557 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:59 am

Mt Pinatubo

VEI 6, 10 cubic kilometres of ash


Mt. Tambora eruption (1815), Indonesia

VEI 7, 180 cubic kilometres of ash

The biggest eruption since the rise of modern science would undoubtedly be Tambora. After showing signs of life in 1812, the volcano erupted with such force in 1815 that its 13,000-plus feet peak was reduced to around 9,350 ft.
Unfortunately, it was responsible for the biggest loss of life from volcanic eruption in human history, as ~10,000 people died directly from volcanic activity and more than 50,000 others died from post-eruption starvation and disease. This eruption was also responsible for a volcanic winter that lowered temperatures worldwide.
It also produced all those lovely red/orange sunsets you see in the paintings of JWM Turner.

Mount Toba eruption (74,000 years ago), Sumatra

VEI 8, 2,800 cubic kilometres of ash

The really huge ones were long before written history. The largest since the rise of modern humans, Homo sapiens, was the great eruption of Toba.
Like the Tambora explosion, Toba probably produced a devastating volcanic winter. Scholars think that this may have decimated the early human population. The eruption lowered temperatures by 3 to 5 degrees Celsius for several years after.

n.b. you will now find the new Mt Toba in the middle of a great big hole called Lake Toba :D


So, when will the next supervolcano go bang?

Don't know.
With the current state of technology, we likely can't know.

The good news is that Mount Toba also went bang 840,000 years ago, so it will probably be at least half a million years before it goes bang again. The reservoir of magma deep under it has to gradually build up volume again.

The bad news is that reservoirs of magma are building up all around the globe, deep under the crust, and we have no idea how big any of them are, or even where they all are.
And we likely won't get years' worth of rumblings and earth movements, contrary to what Hollywood tends to put in the movies.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#558 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:16 pm

Every cent, bead of sweat, and brain electron movement expended on it is a waste compared to the real problems, like rainforest destruction for open cast mining, and pollution of water sources by heavy metals. You know, the kind of things done to produce batteries for electric vehicles and the latest iPhone.
Me, Tuesday


Telegraph, today
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... struction/
The green revolution is fuelling environmental destruction
Net zero warning as the staggering true cost of going green is revealed

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#559 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:02 am

RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

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Re: Climate Crisis!!!!

#560 Post by Smeagol » Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:22 pm

Mrs Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:02 am
This is well worth reading IMO: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... -harm.html
+1

A sensibly argued article, not that the lunatic 'greens' will agree.
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