Another war won..

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Re: Another war won..

#61 Post by John Hill » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:13 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:56 am
John Hill wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:42 am
As far as I know the Teleban did not cause trouble outside their borders. Of course you did not know that when you asked the question you did.
My dear fellow, why are you so defensive? Why do you suppose that anyone quoting from your comments is automatically disagreeing with you?

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Re: Another war won..

#62 Post by llondel » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 pm

My understanding is that the reasoning behind the original invasion was that the Taliban gave shelter to the bad guys. Of course, now it's known that much of their resource is on the Pakistan side of the border, so just invading Afghanistan was never going to work. That is what I believe Biden has acknowledged by announcing the withdrawal, a US presence there is never going to solve the problem to the satisfaction of the US and just add to the body count.

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Re: Another war won..

#63 Post by John Hill » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm

llondel wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 pm
My understanding is that the reasoning behind the original invasion was that the Taliban gave shelter to the bad guys.
That's one version but more likely they wanted to kick-arse somewhere in response to 911 attacks and they did not want to attack Saudi Arabia.

Bush did not really want to see Bin Laden on trial and although it is claimed the Teleban gave shelter to him the Teleban offered to hand him over (to a third country) to face justice.
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Re: Another war won..

#64 Post by llondel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:18 am

John Hill wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:30 pm
llondel wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 pm
My understanding is that the reasoning behind the original invasion was that the Taliban gave shelter to the bad guys.
That's one version but more likely they wanted to kick-arse somewhere in response to 911 attacks and they did not want to attack Saudi Arabia.

Bush did not really want to see Bin Laden on trial and although it is claimed the Teleban gave shelter to him the Teleban offered to hand him over (to a third country) to face justice.
No doubt there are all sorts of "reasons", even if it was just a "Something must be done. This is something". The important thing is that Biden has decided to put a stop to it. Trump had made noises about doing the same but never quite got around to it.

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Re: Another war won..

#65 Post by John Hill » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:33 am

America and allies have been in Afghanistan for 20 years or more but what is there to show for it? Blood and destruction of course and a nice new government system.

But what else? Corruption for one thing in fact Afghanistan has been ranked 177th out of 180 world countries. Peace and security is no better than they have ever been with 40+ percent of the country under Teleban control.

Biden wants to award medals and shut the door on what has been called America's longest war. But it is not America's longest war as they are still at war with North Korea after 73 years.
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Re: Another war won..

#66 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm

llondel wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 pm
My understanding is that the reasoning behind the original invasion was that the Taliban gave shelter to the bad guys.

As ever, the two drivers for war were/are Greed and Fear, but not in that order.

The CEO of Halliburton was the designated adult supervision grownup assigned to keep wee Dubya in line. They knew that the firm would garner hundreds of Billion$ in revenue from a long war in Eyerack. Shrub was no businessman and he knew almost nothing about the oil patch and understood even less, which is why his childish attempt at running a business went Arbusto. Greed was a compulsive driver for the BigOil/MilitaryIndustrialComplex in that war (the BushBlair one).

That was that war, but the adjacent/parallel wars are just the same. Now we are talking about the failed war against Afghanistan.

By far the greatest driver is not greed though, but Fear.

Fear is really easy to sell. Most of us baby boomers, and our elders, got suckered by the Fear that was imposed on us in the cold war. We ended up believing the ***** that if we did not hand over billions of Pounds of money which should been spent on schools, hospitals, libraries and renovating the railways etc, to the military: we must expect that at any minute there'd be a knock at the door with a rifle butt and there would be standing a fur-hatted soldier with snow on his boots.

We were also convinced that if Vietnam were granted independence and were allowed to remove America's artificial divide-conquer-rule line of demarcation, there would be a domino effect and that the commie hordes would flood outwards to take over New Zealand and that we'd no longer have a nice leg of lamb for Sunday dindins. We actually believed that crap. Most of us anyway.

Fear is very easily manipulated. For example, in 1963 Ronald Reagan said that "Vietnam is the greatest threat to Mankind in his march from the swamp to the stars". He actually said that, out loud. He really believed it. So did his audience. To him, and to them, his and their own Fear was real. Tangible. The sort of thing that must be acted upon. And so it was, unthinkingly. The result was The American War which was so disastrous, in human terms, for the Vietnamese people (circa 3M dead), but also to the space invaders (circa 50k dead)

There are four forms of such Fear, as was used to persuade people in countries of the, by then, thoroughly obsolete NATO, to crush Afghanistan like a bug.

1) The first Fear is obtained by persuading people that a particular country is the most dangerous thing in the world. Russia; Vietnam; Russia; Afghanistan; Russia; China, etc. It goes on, propelled by that form of Fear.

2) The second form of Fear is to say that it's not actually the country itself that is the problem, but that it's a failed space: a void that can be filled with the sort of demons that haunt our darkest nightmares.

3) The third form of Fear is used to say to the masses at home: OK, it's not actually the country itself that is the danger, but the danger is of that country having a bad effect on the neighbours. Dominoes.

4) The fourth form of Fear is the most pernicious. It's the Fear that we must not look foolish or weak. We must show that we are either the Big Dog or else really good pals with a really really Big Dog. To look weak would make us feel weak, and that never feels good. It would make us feel foolish. A circular form of Fear that spins up (down, actually) into a vortex. Very destructive, that one. Quo vadis, Blair?

For non-Imperial, or former and collapsed Imperial countries such as Britain and ffrance, there is a fifth form of Fear. That is that we are shown to be a fifth-rate power who can no longer get a hard-on and anyway have forgotten how to use it well.

Those four or five Fears all drive in the same direction when there's an easy country to attack en-masse.

Fear makes us stop thinking. It makes us react, unthinkingly. That's bad, not good.

That's why Fear is such an incredibly powerful driver for such stupid wars.

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Re: Another war won..

#67 Post by John Hill » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:02 pm

They are working on the 'new fear'.
North Korea or China?
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Re: Another war won..

#68 Post by AtomKraft » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:07 am

John.
Is it true that NZ is quitting the 'five eyes' and cosying up to the Chinks.

I dearly hope not.

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Re: Another war won..

#69 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:11 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:03 pm
llondel wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 pm
My understanding is that the reasoning behind the original invasion was that the Taliban gave shelter to the bad guys.

As ever, the two drivers for war were/are Greed and Fear, but not in that order.

The CEO of Halliburton was the designated adult supervision grownup assigned to keep wee Dubya in line. They knew that the firm would garner hundreds of Billion$ in revenue from a long war in Eyerack. Shrub was no businessman and he knew almost nothing about the oil patch and understood even less, which is why his childish attempt at running a business went Arbusto. Greed was a compulsive driver for the BigOil/MilitaryIndustrialComplex in that war (the BushBlair one).

That was that war, but the adjacent/parallel wars are just the same. Now we are talking about the failed war against Afghanistan.

By far the greatest driver is not greed though, but Fear.

Fear is really easy to sell. Most of us baby boomers, and our elders, got suckered by the Fear that was imposed on us in the cold war. We ended up believing the ***** that if we did not hand over billions of Pounds of money which should been spent on schools, hospitals, libraries and renovating the railways etc, to the military: we must expect that at any minute there'd be a knock at the door with a rifle butt and there would be standing a fur-hatted soldier with snow on his boots.

We were also convinced that if Vietnam were granted independence and were allowed to remove America's artificial divide-conquer-rule line of demarcation, there would be a domino effect and that the commie hordes would flood outwards to take over New Zealand and that we'd no longer have a nice leg of lamb for Sunday dindins. We actually believed that crap. Most of us anyway.

Fear is very easily manipulated. For example, in 1963 Ronald Reagan said that "Vietnam is the greatest threat to Mankind in his march from the swamp to the stars". He actually said that, out loud. He really believed it. So did his audience. To him, and to them, his and their own Fear was real. Tangible. The sort of thing that must be acted upon. And so it was, unthinkingly. The result was The American War which was so disastrous, in human terms, for the Vietnamese people (circa 3M dead), but also to the space invaders (circa 50k dead)

There are four forms of such Fear, as was used to persuade people in countries of the, by then, thoroughly obsolete NATO, to crush Afghanistan like a bug.

1) The first Fear is obtained by persuading people that a particular country is the most dangerous thing in the world. Russia; Vietnam; Russia; Afghanistan; Russia; China, etc. It goes on, propelled by that form of Fear.

2) The second form of Fear is to say that it's not actually the country itself that is the problem, but that it's a failed space: a void that can be filled with the sort of demons that haunt our darkest nightmares.

3) The third form of Fear is used to say to the masses at home: OK, it's not actually the country itself that is the danger, but the danger is of that country having a bad effect on the neighbours. Dominoes.

4) The fourth form of Fear is the most pernicious. It's the Fear that we must not look foolish or weak. We must show that we are either the Big Dog or else really good pals with a really really Big Dog. To look weak would make us feel weak, and that never feels good. It would make us feel foolish. A circular form of Fear that spins up (down, actually) into a vortex. Very destructive, that one. Quo vadis, Blair?

For non-Imperial, or former and collapsed Imperial countries such as Britain and ffrance, there is a fifth form of Fear. That is that we are shown to be a fifth-rate power who can no longer get a hard-on and anyway have forgotten how to use it well.

Those four or five Fears all drive in the same direction when there's an easy country to attack en-masse.

Fear makes us stop thinking. It makes us react, unthinkingly. That's bad, not good.

That's why Fear is such an incredibly powerful driver for such stupid wars.
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Re: Another war won..

#70 Post by prospector » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:23 am

AK,
Who knows? comparing one mythical creature, the maori taniwha, to the Chinese dragon certainly was a bit concerning as to intent but??

//www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/praise- ... t/ar-BB1fS

It would appear that the news article quoted has been pulled, perhaps our Foreign Minister's words were embarrassing to some.

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Re: Another war won..

#71 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am

AK, they might just be ahead of the game. Remember the old adage of friends and enemies.

With the exception of Korea I would suggest that the Cold War posture of deterrence, MAD, and ultimate retaliation is for the history books. Attractive as it might be to cast China as the militaristic enemy it makes no sense that China would attack its major markets.

Similarly it makes even less sense for RoW to destroy its major manufacturing centre.

During WW2 the UK had a Ministry of Economic Warfare and that is what we are seeing now, economic warfare, and our move to addressing this is Cyber Warfare.

Armies are not obsolete but the Falklands and the Gulf were probably the swan song for interstate warfare. We have sabre rattling but actually combat between the major powers is, I suggest, unlikely.

Do we really need hugely expensive advanced manned fighters and drone wing men?

Do we really need a third generation of ballistic missile submarines?

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Re: Another war won..

#72 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:29 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
Do we really need hugely expensive advanced manned fighters and drone wing men?

Do we really need a third generation of ballistic missile submarines?

No.

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Re: Another war won..

#73 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:53 pm

On come on UP, why do you have to give such a vague answer?

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Re: Another war won..

#74 Post by Bob » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:19 pm

Id call it succint
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Re: Another war won..

#75 Post by John Hill » Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:43 pm

AtomKraft wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:07 am
John.
Is it true that NZ is quitting the 'five eyes' and cosying up to the Chinks(?)

I dearly hope not.
I have not heard any official announcements on the matter of Five Eyes and NZ.

We do not call anyone 'Chinks'.

I do not care either way but that may be because I struggle to see any advantage Five Eyes has ever been to NZ.
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Re: Another war won..

#76 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:05 pm

John Hill wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:43 pm
I struggle to see any advantage Five Eyes has ever been to NZ.
It kept you ever so slightly apart from West Island.

That must be something.

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Re: Another war won..

#77 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:06 pm

John, the advantage might be related to your policy of deploying with Australian Defence Force. It is useful to know what they know.

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Re: Another war won..

#78 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:10 pm

Y'never know what the baastads might use against ya.

They won't tell ye that stuff.

Can't imagine why not.

Funny how that works, innit.

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Re: Another war won..

#79 Post by John Hill » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:28 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:06 pm
John, the advantage might be related to your policy of deploying with Australian Defence Force. It is useful to know what they know.
We no longer automatically follow along with the Skippies, not since they sided with the Septics in the ANZUS debacle.
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Re: Another war won..

#80 Post by John Hill » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:37 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:10 pm
Y'never know what the baastads might use against ya.

They won't tell ye that stuff.

Can't imagine why not.

Funny how that works, innit.
That is the funny thing about Five Eyes all the data is sent elsewhere for processing so we only get what a 'partners' deem we should have.

For example what is the use of a system like Five Eyes if they dont even know where nuclear submarines are lurking around the world? For example our Froggie friends sent their nuclear sub to the South Pacific on a mission which constituted a warlike act against NZ but our Five Eyes friends did not tell us about that and neither did they tell us about the bumble footed agents making their way here.

As far as NZ is concerned Five Eyes is all give and apparently no take.
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