Afghanistan (where the war is over)

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Boac
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#581 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:21 am

Not sure what the fuss is about. Many places in the world follow procedural IFR and you do not need a 'controlling authority' to operate under them. Just follow them!

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#582 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:25 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:21 am
Not sure what the fuss is about. Many places in the world follow procedural IFR and you do not need a 'controlling authority' to operate under them. Just follow them!
Yeabut, someone has to write the procedures and perfectly adequate procedures were defined back in the Taliban I era. No doubt someone has messed with them since but there was not much in the way of navaids in those times ,the NDB transmitter was in a wrecked building, the VOR on 'TV Mountain' had long been smashed and the localizer on the airfield was soon destroyed by a not-so-smart-bomb.

However, here is some interesting reading https://acaa.gov.af/wp-content/uploads/ ... P-2021.pdf
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#583 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:42 am

John - it is called ICAO. Nothing to do with Taliban or whoever. If anyone in Afghanistan has decided to impose other rules but not told anyone............ :))

I would expect all operators inbound or outbound to adhere to standard IFR - procedural if necessary (if Qatar has not yet set up area and airfield ATC with radar and (probably) made sure the NavAids are functioning, which I'm sure they have). If not, well, it is a big sky. :-bd

EDIT: Just seen your update link and all is obviously fine - a touch of Qatari. I'd be more than happy to operate into Kabul.

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#584 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:44 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:21 am
Not sure what the fuss is about. Many places in the world follow procedural IFR and you do not need a 'controlling authority' to operate under them. Just follow them!
Yeabut, someone has to write the procedures and perfectly adequate procedures were defined back in the Taliban I era. No doubt someone has messed with them since but there was not much in the way of navaids in those times ,the NDB transmitter was in a wrecked building, the VOR on 'TV Mountain' had long been smashed and the localizer on the airfield was soon destroyed by a not-so-smart-bomb.

However, here is some interesting reading https://acaa.gov.af/wp-content/uploads/ ... P-2021.pdf


I have not gone searching for any more than that..............
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#585 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:00 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:42 am
John - it is called ICAO. Nothing to do with Taliban or whoever. If anyone in Afghanistan has decided to impose other rules but not told anyone............ :))
Well, frankly no. ICAO does not write rules and they do not impose regulations, what they do do:-
ICAO is funded and directed by 193 national governments to support their diplomacy and cooperation in air transport as signatory states to the Chicago Convention (1944).

Its core function is to maintain an administrative and expert bureaucracy (the ICAO Secretariat) supporting these diplomatic interactions, and to research new air transport policy and standardization innovations as directed and endorsed by governments through the ICAO Assembly, or by the ICAO Council which the assembly elects.

Industry and civil society groups, and other concerned regional and international organizations, also participate in the exploration and development of new standards at ICAO in their capacity as ‘Invited Organizations’.

As new priorities are identified by these stakeholders, the ICAO secretariat convenes panels, task forces, conferences and seminars to explore their technical, political, socio-economic and other aspects. It then provides governments with the best results and advice possible as they collectively and diplomatically establish new international standards and recommended practices for civil aviation internationally.

Once governments achieve diplomatic consensus around a new standard’s scope and details, it is then adopted by those same 193 countries in order to bring worldwide alignment to their national regulations, helping to realize safe, secure and sustainable air operations on a truly global basis.

In addition to these core diplomatic and research capabilities, ICAO also serves as a critical coordination platform in civil aviation through its seven Regional Offices.
It also conducts educational outreach, develops coalitions, and conducts auditing, training, and capacity building activities worldwide per the needs and priorities governments identify and formalize.

Not a global regulator
The stipulations ICAO standards contain never supersede the primacy of national regulatory requirements. It is always the local, national regulations which are enforced in, and by, sovereign states, and which must be legally adhered to by air operators making use of applicable airspace and airports.

Contrary to many dramatic and media portrayals of UN agencies, they do not have any authority over national governments in the areas of international priority they are established for. Critiques of the UN are often rooted in allegations founded on fantastical capabilities and authorities which sovereign states would never assign to a multilateral organization.

ICAO is therefore not an international aviation regulator, just as INTERPOL is not an international police force. We cannot arbitrarily close or restrict a country’s airspace, shut down routes, or condemn airports or airlines for poor safety performance or customer service.

Should a country transgress a given international standard adopted through our organization, ICAO’s function in such circumstances, consistent with our core diplomatic capabilities and role, is to help countries conduct any discussions, condemnations, sanctions, etc., they may wish to pursue, consistent with the Chicago Convention and the Articles and Annexes it contains under international law.
I would expect all operators inbound or outbound to adhere to standard IFR - procedural if necessary (if Qatar has not yet set up area and airfield ATC with radar and (probably) made sure the NavAids are functioning, which I'm sure they have). If not, well, it is a big sky. :-bd
I would not hazard a guess as to what Qatar may have set up at OAKB but whatever would need the approval of the controlling state, i.e Taliban, not ICAO.

Yes, it is a big sky and every photograph you have seen of Kabul has been clear blue sky but it is not like they every day. The runway is at an elevation (1790 metres) where we would normally expect to see clouds and many of their clouds have hard centres.
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#586 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:36 am


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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#587 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:56 pm

JH wrote:it is not like they every day. The runway is at an elevation (1790 metres) where we would normally expect to see clouds and many of their clouds have hard centres.
Golly. What WOULD we do without you, John? :))

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#588 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:01 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:56 pm
JH wrote:it is not like they every day. The runway is at an elevation (1790 metres) where we would normally expect to see clouds and many of their clouds have hard centres.
Golly. What WOULD we do without you, John? :))
It would be intensely boring without John, I would wager. His insouciance drives the right wing mad and amuses me for one! =))
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#589 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:18 pm

I see that Afghanistan has lost its last Jew, which I think is a bad omen for any country.

The last member of Afghanistan's Jewish community has left the country.
Zebulon Simentov, who lived in a dilapidated synagogue in Kabul kept kosher and prayed in Hebrew endured decades of war as the country's centuries-old Jewish community rapidly dwindled. But the Taliban takeover last month seems to have been the last straw.

Moti Kahana, an Israeli-American businessman who runs a private security group that organized the evacuation, told The Associated Press on Wednesday that the 62-year-old Simentov and 29 of his neighbors, nearly all of them women and children, have been taken to a “neighboring country.”

Kahana said Simentov, who had lived under Taliban rule before, was not worried about them. But Kahana warned him that he was at risk of being kidnapped or killed by the far more radical Islamic State group. He said Simentov's neighbors also pressed him to leave, so that their children could join him on the bus out.

Israel's Kan public broadcaster aired footage of the evacuation, showing a bus full of people traveling across what appeared to be Afghanistan, with all the faces blurred except for Simentov's.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 16429.html

Who will say Kaddish now?

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#590 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:10 pm

In Afghanistan, almost no-one.

I spent almost half a year of my life having to chant the Shahida so that I could get out of my Murricane-built 10x10x10 concrete cell in Audi Sarabia on a daily basis.

It's part of my life.

I remember it well. So well. Every day, in fact.

God bless America. No other sentient entity would so to do.

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#591 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:52 pm

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:10 pm
In Afghanistan, almost no-one.

I spent almost half a year of my life having to chant the Shahida so that I could get out of my Murricane-built 10x10x10 concrete cell in Audi Sarabia on a daily basis.

It's part of my life.

I remember it well. So well. Every day, in fact.

God bless America. No other sentient entity would so to do.
I sometimes wonder whether or not it is better to be an enemy of America than a friend.

last jew.JPG
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#592 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:48 pm

More friends then

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#593 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:49 pm

With friends like that, ....................

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#594 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:19 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:56 pm
Golly. What WOULD we do without you, John? :))
Apparently, among other things, you would be thinking that ICAO makes the rules. #:-S
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#595 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:27 pm

Yes, but thankfully you rescued me from that dire simplification (made for those who are not experienced), and I now know that Kabul has weather. Priceless - you are a true diamond amongst aviators.

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#596 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:36 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:52 pm
I sometimes wonder whether or not it is better to be an enemy of America than a friend.
America does not have friends and even those with a 'Special Relationship' may find their interpretation differs from that of their friend's.
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#597 Post by John Hill » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:39 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:27 pm
Priceless - you are a true diamond amongst aviators.
Although I spent my entire career in the aviation industry I do not claim to be an aviator.
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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#598 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:41 pm

Except the sons of Israel.

Different rules there.

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#599 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:42 pm

John Hill wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:36 pm

America does not have friends and even those with a 'Special Relationship' may find their interpretation differs from that of their friend's.

Except the sons of Israel.

Different rules there.

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Re: Afghanistan (where the war is over)

#600 Post by Boac » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:05 pm

[quote+JH]Although I spent my entire career in the aviation industry I do not claim to be an aviator.[/quote] NB I did not say you were! It is apparent you do not know much about it, but you are truly a diamond amongst WE AVIATORS for the insight you offer.

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