Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1481 Post by barkingmad » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:07 am

om15 wrote:
Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:45 am
Reported today in the news, Ukraine is applying to join the EU,

Ukraine has filled out a questionnaire for its bid to join the European Union, an official announced Sunday.

The process to join could take years, but this marks another step closer.

Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, welcomed Ukraine’s application earlier this month and delivered the questionnaire in person to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

She said: “We are with you as you dream of Europe. ... Ukraine belongs in the European family."

“We will accelerate this process as much as we can, while ensuring that all conditions are respected.

I would have thought that Ukraine has enough problems at the moment without being a member of the EU as well, this is the same EU that is spending a Billion a day on Russian energy, Ursula von der Leyen is oblivious to the irony here, it is Germany that has funded Putin's invasion
And so the Hamster wheel continues to creak slowly and noisily, note the date of this item;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25162563

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1482 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Apr 18, 2022 10:58 am

Will there be any 'Ukraine' left to join the EU?

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1483 Post by FD2 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:02 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... nking.html

Moskva on Fire.png


It looks as though the ship has been gutted by fire or explosion from at least the hangar forward and the cruise missile launchers either side of the bridge have gone - presumably in a massive explosion. No survivors are visible so it looks as though she's been abandoned. A Hormone is on the flight deck but may have been damaged or has nowhere to fly to that has a flight deck.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1484 Post by FD2 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:50 pm

Here's a slightly different take on the sanctions and Russian people. From The Spectator.

Cross to bear

Can Russia ever atone for Putin’s sins?
Owen Matthews

‘The photographs of murdered civilians, their hands tied behind their backs, shot in the head and tossed like animals on to the street… we will not forget, and no one will let us forget,’ wrote Russian journalist and author Yevgenia Albats last week. ‘The guilt for this will lie on our children and grandchildren. Bucha, Irpin, Motyzhin – we will now have to live with them for ever.’

Powerful words and moving nostra culpa for Russian atrocities in Ukraine. But they raise a vital question. Who, exactly, is the ‘we’ who is to bear the blame, guilt and punishment? All Russians? The 70 per cent of Russians who official polls claim actively support the war? Russian soldiers responsible for the atrocities? The commanders who ordered, or at least condoned, them? Or is it just Vladimir Putin and the very tiny clique who conceived and launched the invasion?

Yevgenia Albats is one of the very few Russians who have written publicly of her whole people’s need for ‘repentance’, ‘guilt’ and ‘shame’. But she is also one of the very few Russians who has passionately and publicly opposed the war – and spent a career, as editor of the now-banned New Times independent newspaper, exposing the brutality and corruption of the Putin regime, in particular its venal and murderous secret police. If any Russian is free from guilt by association, it’s Albats and people like her.

The Russians who are actually most responsible are the ones who feel the least guilt. The nihilists and the cynics, the conspiracy theorists and the my-country-right-or-wrong crowd. Russians’ self-delusion comes in a rainbow of dirty colours – from the ‘all media is lying’ and ‘guilt on both sides’
brigade to the outright Russian patriots who believe that their country’s historical destiny is to protect and dominate little brother peoples on the peripheries of the old empire. Crisis is a great revealer of people’s true nature. And as it turns out, all kinds of surprising old Russian friends – people whom I had thought bohemian, charming, international, well-informed – have shown themselves to be obnoxious apologists.

‘This Bucha looks too perfect, at least the way it was produced,’ writes one Muscovite who has lived in Europe for 20 years. ‘Bodies clean? Moving hands? Cars burned and clean beside each other? I am not saying it didn’t happen, but they should focus on what has happened to all the villages cancelled from the map…’

She meant the villages of Donbas supposedly wiped out by Ukrainian forces after the 2014 war. I pointed out that indeed two million out of the pre-2014 three million-strong population of Donbas moved away in the wake of the separatist war, which left some 14,000 dead. But that was eight years ago. I add links to UN reports – signed off on by Russia – of recent civilian casualties in Donbas. The death toll for 2021: 25 civilians on both sides of the line of control, mostly killed by unexploded ordnance.

‘Owen, have you seen any of the content, blocked by every country but Germany, of what is really happening in Ukraine? Hundreds of civilians tortured for years?’ is her reply. ‘Five bodies cannot become the end of the world after everything that the world has been doing for years. Sorry… It is about fair conflict: Russia against everyone.’

And the video evidence of the Bucha massacre – fake or not?

‘Most people who work in the [media] industry noticed the same, so we are not drugged strangers,’ she claims. I send a video conclusively debunking the Russian conspiracy theory that corpses in Bucha supposedly moved their hands and sat up. The YouTube link features the now infamous image of a dead woman’s hand with painted fingernails emerging from the ground.

‘Darling, it is not about perfect nails,’ comes the answer, followed by a smiley face that makes me choke with fury.

This conversation continues for some days, my now former friend leaping like a retreating frog from one conspiracy to another. In the end we get to the heart of the matter. She is Russian. She believes (rightly) that the world is against her country. And she will defend it, against all evidence, because she believes that her nation is an essential part of her self-worth.

That’s the key to understanding why so many Russians believe the outlandish propaganda that the Kremlin media machine puts out. Not because they are unusually stupid or gullible people. Not because they don’t have access to alternative information (which, despite internet access bans, is accessible through free VPNs or secure phone apps like Telegram). Yes, the Kremlin systematically misleads them. But this works because so many Russians are happy to be misled. A tragically large proportion of the population are actively complicit in their own delusion. They want to believe that their country is great and right – and anyone who says different is an enemy and a traitor.

When you see the world through blinkers, knowing the truth does not make you free. Yevgeny Popov is the co-anchor of 60 Minut, Russia’s top-rated TV politics talk show on the state-owned Rossiya-1 channel. He has lived in Washington and Kyiv and speaks fluent English. His newsroom receives live video feeds from AP, Reuters, AFP, the BBC and every other western channel. Yet Popov apparently sincerely believes that the entire western media is engaged in a vast conspiracy to blacken his country’s name. ‘Your media have dumped a storm of hatred on Russia – and in doing so you have buried the very idea of professional journalism,’ Popov told me on the phone last month. ‘You accuse us of not having a free press – but every one of your reports from Ukraine proves that it’s you who have no free press.’

Our fury and revulsion at the massacres of Bucha and Kramatorsk demand action. We find ourselves confronted with what Lenin called the ‘cursed Russian questions’ – what to do, and who to blame? But the moment we start to act and mete out punishment, for instance in the form of sanctions, we find that the question is thrown back in our faces. Are we a society that punishes people for their nationality? For their political views? For the actions of leaders against whom they are powerless? Isn’t the idea of collective punishment and confiscation of property without due process something deeply antithetical to the very notion of a free, law-based society that the Ukrainians are fighting to defend?

Let us be under no illusions. Sanctions against Russia will be devastatingly effective in destroying its economic growth and crippling its industries. But the idea that the mass of Russians will rise against their leaders because they have been deprived of McDonald’s, Ikea, Zara, Apple Pay and foreign travel is, sadly, fanciful. Indeed the idea that Putin is protecting his people from a western assault will only be reinforced, in a perverse way, by the coming privations. True, hundreds of thousands of educated, wealthy Russian professionals have seen their comfortable lives and careers collapse. Up to 250,000 have voted with their feet and left the country. Terrible for Russia’s future and for them – but not a revolution.

No. Sanctions on Russia and on Russians abroad are about punishment – about making people, a people, suffer for their support for a monstrous regime and its violent outrages. It’s also about deterrence. According to a senior source close to the Chinese government, Beijing has been shocked both by the West’s resolve in imposing sanctions and also by the devastating effect that non-state sanctions by private companies have had on Russia’s economy. An invasion of Taiwan now looks like an economically suicidal option. Sanctions may not be effective in bringing swift regime change in Moscow. But not to impose them and continue with business as usual would create a terrible moral hazard for the world.

The trickier question is how to deal with individual Russians and Russian institutions. Take Zima Russian restaurant in Frith Street, Soho, which is owned and run by Russian investors who have nothing to do with the Putin regime. Over the years Zima and the brilliant eponymous Russian-language magazine it runs have become a focal point for opposition activists, journalists and writers who have fled the country and settled in London. Its chef and founder, Alexei Zimin, regularly cooks and sells meals for the benefit of Ukrainian refugees, and its profits since the beginning of the war have been donated to the Ukrainian Red Cross. Yet over the past month people have taken to calling up to berate the restaurant for serving borscht (traditionally a Ukrainian dish) and more generally to abuse the staff for Russia’s aggression – despite the fact that most of them are, in fact, Ukrainian.



Owen Matthews is the author of Overreach: the Inside Story of Putin’s War on Ukraine, to be published by HarperCollins in October.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1485 Post by FD2 » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:51 pm

Part 2

Oligarchs are more complicated. The British press wants to see wealthy Russians kicked out of their mansions and shunned by society, their bank accounts frozen and golden visas suspended. Wealthy Russians in the UK are easy targets – all the more so because we know that London’s financial centre has, in Oliver Bullough’s memorable phrase, been ‘butler to the world’ and chief accessory to the wholesale plundering of Russia by its elites. Their downfall elicits much schadenfreude and little sympathy.

But what of wealthy Russians who oppose Putin? One Russian friend, who lives in a handsome mansion in Kensington, fled Moscow a decade ago after his business was stolen by the FSB. He cannot return to Russia for fear of arrest, but he has had his UK bank accounts frozen despite not being sanctioned in any way. He remains philosophical. ‘Smite all Russians and let God sort them out, is the principle,’ he sighs. ‘I can understand why people think like that.’

On Novinsky Boulevard in Moscow, posters falsely claim that ‘Chekhov has been cancelled in Europe.’ Kremlin–controlled media reports that Russian students have been expelled from European universities and tourists abused. It’s important not to allow any claims that the West is succumbing to virulent Russophobia or cancelling Russian culture to become true. Since it is Easter, a time of redemption, let us put the way forward in religious terms. By all means smite the unrepentant sinners. But remember that many Russians – including many who live in Europe – are not only opponents of Putin but his victims.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1486 Post by prospector » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:27 am

Another take on the situation by somebody, Sergei Lavrov, who would have a much better overall view, and experience in these matters than most. It is a very long interview but well worth listening to for a few facts, as seen from the other side of this massive clusterf--k, being played out, with many billions being made by arms manufacturers from the usual places.


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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1487 Post by Boac » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:45 am

From The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent, and acknowledged as propaganda, of course.

"These are the indicative estimates of Russia’s combat losses as of April 20, according to the Armed Forces of Ukraine."
FQxW2JxWQAIUlTR.jpg
FQxW2JxWQAIUlTR.jpg (57.83 KiB) Viewed 696 times
If only partly true, quite interesting. Updated daily.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1488 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:31 am

prospector wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:27 am
Another take on the situation by somebody, Sergei Lavrov, who would have a much better overall view, and experience in these matters than most.
Well, yes, he would wouldn't he, given that his country is the primary belligerent and cause of the illegal and unnecessary war being prosecuted against the Ukraine!

Posting him as a reasonable arbiter is akin to having asked President Gualtieri for his considered opinion on the Falklands war at the time it was being fought.
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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1489 Post by FD2 » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:37 am

She believes (rightly) that the world is against her country. And she will defend it, against all evidence, because she believes that her nation is an essential part of her self-worth.

That’s the key to understanding why so many Russians believe the outlandish propaganda that the Kremlin media machine puts out. Not because they are unusually stupid or gullible people. Not because they don’t have access to alternative information (which, despite internet access bans, is accessible through free VPNs or secure phone apps like Telegram). Yes, the Kremlin systematically misleads them. But this works because so many Russians are happy to be misled. A tragically large proportion of the population are actively complicit in their own delusion. They want to believe that their country is great and right – and anyone who says different is an enemy and a traitor.


From my post of 19th April. It seems to apply to some outside Russia as well. Well I think outside, but who knows? ;)))

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1490 Post by larsssnowpharter » Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:48 pm

For those interested in a 'scoresheet', this site purports to be fairly accurate in that they say they have photo or video verification of the various losses. Interestingly, includes Ukrainian losses.

It's on oryxspionkop.com

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1491 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:05 pm

This site can’t be reached
Check if there is a typo in oryxspionkop.com.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1492 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:15 pm

Russian military ineptitude is causing ripples back in the motherland...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/ru ... li=AAnZ9Ug

Even Vladimir Soloviev, a state TV host, was having trouble swallowing the loss of Russia’s flagship cruiser Moskva last week as he took aim at a rare target: the Russian military.

“You just tell me how you were able to lose it,” he said in an extended temper tantrum on his talkshow, one of Russia’s most popular. “Tell me, what the hell were you doing in that particular area of the Black Sea at that moment?”

Soloviev remains pro-Putin and pro-war. But the rare outburst has pointed to how the stress of Russia’s war in Ukraine has grown as the invasion enters its third month, with both sides announcing a “new stage” in the conflict in the “battle for Donbas”.

Kremlin officials have shown no signs of contrition. Vladimir Putin decorated the 64th Separate Motorized Rifle Brigade for its “mass heroism and courage” after the same unit had been accused by Ukraine of committing war crimes in Bucha.

But as the cost of the invasion has grown, some unlikely critics of the war have also grown more outspoken.

“I don’t see a SINGLE beneficiary of this mad war!” wrote the outspoken businessman Oleg Tinkov in a statement on Tuesday. “Innocent people and soldiers are being killed. Generals have woken up from their hangover to understand they have a ***** army. And why would the army be good, if everything else in the country is ***** and rife with nepotism, lackyism, and servility?

“Dear ‘collective west’, please give Mr Putin a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre.”

Russian MPs have suggested charging him with discrediting the Russian armed forces.

On both sides of a polarised Russian society, the failures of the first stage of the war have raised the stakes of the conflict, turning what the Kremlin calls a “special operation” into an existential one.

“We are seeing that the fate of Putin, Russia and society as a whole is being merged into one,” said Greg Yudin, a sociologist. “I hear more often that while people think the war might have been a mistake, they say there is no way back; they say ‘we’ve got to finish the job.’”

Marina Litvinovich, an opposition activist and politician who has remained in Russia, said she saw the war as a stress test for the government that threatened to bring down the “colossus with clay feet” that Putin had built over 20 years in power.
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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1493 Post by larsssnowpharter » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:02 pm

No typo G CPTN. That link will take you to the site. Scroll down to Popular Articles and look for:
Attack on Europe. Documenting Equipment Losses.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1494 Post by larsssnowpharter » Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:25 pm

I'm also reading of reports of

1. General Atomics being in negotiations to supply MQ 9s to Ukraine with 'early delivery'. Possible game changer.

2. The Netherlands supplying Thales Squire ABR. Useful piece of kit.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1495 Post by bob2s » Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:54 pm

Putin seems to be using the latest test of nuclear missiles to warn the west that if they interfere in Russia/Ukraine war then he has the means to make
them regret interfering.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ru ... 022-04-20/

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1496 Post by FD2 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:08 am

Nothing new there bob2s - they've had the means for donkey's years - just another veiled threat to any countries that don't do what he wants. Just as well the west has the means to do it back should he start something.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1497 Post by admin2 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:03 pm

A note to say that the recent frothing about the way the site is run had been moved to the Censoring thread viewtopic.php?f=64&t=7139&start=100#p332619 as it has very little to do with the war in Ukraine.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1498 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:42 pm

A Russki Presidential Flight aircraft heading towards the Ukraine has just turned it's transponder off.
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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1499 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:13 pm

There is a Special Flight Il96 NE of Kharkov at low level. Could be in a circuit.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1500 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:52 pm

Ops



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