Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

A place to discuss politics and things related to Govts
Message
Author
User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1601 Post by boing » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:25 am

Norwegian troops played little part in the "liberation" of northern Norway as the area had been under Nazi control since mid-1940 and the country was led by a puppet government which gave us the name "Quisling" for the future. The ordinary Norwegians did probably support the Russian efforts but what alternative did they have, continuing under Nazi Germany?

The real intent of the Russian invasion of northern Norway was not to liberate the Norwegians, it was to destroy German troops concentrations in Kirkenes, some 90 miles NE of Murmansk. Murmansk being, of course, the most important port on the route of supplies and military material from the US and UK and its loss would have been an enormous blow to the Russians.

Notably, once they had secured Kirkenes and had a few victory parades they promptly returned home.

I would think though, that if a foreign country, with no previous invitation, entered your country for military purposes it could reasonably be called an invasion.

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1602 Post by John Hill » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:45 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:07 pm
Countries bombed by the US since the establishment of the Kaliningrad corridor in 1945:
What about Pakistan?
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
llondel
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5913
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1603 Post by llondel » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 am

Of course, if Russia didn't have the nuclear threat, the US would probably have steamrollered them back to the Ukraine border by now.

I still find myself somewhat gob smacked at how badly the Russians are doing, even if they ultimately gain territory from the operation. It will require an awful lot to rebuild it, regardless of who's in control when they stop shooting at each other.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1604 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:56 am

We should also consider the allied assistance to the White Russians after WW1 and the attempt to crush the revolution.
I think that set the tone for East and West ever since.

https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780810896390/W ... n-Disaster

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British ... d%20Latvia.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1605 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:15 am

Indeed, this has been largely airbrushed out of western history, largely because it was so incompetently delivered and unsuccessful. But the Russians haven't forgotten.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1606 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:32 am

boing wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:25 am
Norwegian troops played little part in the "liberation" of northern Norway
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Hundreds of Norwegians were trained by MilOrg in 'neutral' Sweden with the assistance of the Swedish military authorities. They travelled to Northern Russia and crossed the border into Norway in April 1945 in company with the Russian allies and chased the Germans out of Northernmost Norway. Actually, they were somewhat pushing at an open door because Terboven's plan was to regroup in central Norway to fight a last stand for the Reich and then push back against the Allies at a later date.

It's utterly wrong for anyone to claim that Russia "invaded" Norway and therefore needs to be "corralled", in the same way that it would be wrong to claim that France and Poland invaded Norway at Åndalsnes in 1940 and should therefore should also be corralled as if they're some kind of enemy.

This documentary may require some kind of autotranslator for those who don't understand Norwegian, but it's worth ploughing through anyway. It's pretty much the most authentic history of its type.


User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1607 Post by boing » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:59 pm

UP

This is becoming a rather pedantic discussion but I suppose a correct definition of terms is important.

This is the Oxford English dictionary definition of invasion.
Meaning of invasion in English
invasion
noun [ C or U ]
uk
an occasion when an army or country uses force to enter and take control of another country:
Note.

The fact that the invading army contains an element of nationals from the country being invaded is not relevant. The major concept of an invasion is those from without "using force to take control of another country". In reality the invading force could consist entirely of those originally from a country who are now reentering their original country to retake control. If this was an internal event it would be something like a revolution or a coupe, the fact that it is taking place from without characterises it as an invasion.

In the case of Norway the invasion could be considered as an attempt to remove the puppet government installed by the Germans but the simple fact is, no matter how laudable the intent, entry into a country by force is by definition an invasion regardless of its intent. ie "uses force to enter and take control of another country". For example we could claim that our country is invaded by tourists, in a way we could say that there is an army purely based on numbers, we could say they take control of the country when they are present BUT we could not claim they enter the country by force so we have no true invasion.

As a support for these claims I present the "D-day Invasion of Europe". Carried out with the best of intentions by a force containing many nationals of the country being invaded and with the support of a welcoming population but it is still historically considered an invasion.

Now, there are outlying cases. Imagine that an army from another country is "invited" into a certain country by an unpopular leader to bolster his authority. Is this an invasion? I would suggest not because force is not used to enter the country and the entering army does not intend to take formal control but if the "invited" army needed to use force to subdue elements of the population to gain entry it would, I should think, become an invasion.

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1608 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:51 pm

D-Day in French is “Le Débarquement”, which literally means 'disembarkation, disembarking, landing'. The French also call D-Day “le Jour J”, but it's not very common.

And not an invasion by the allies

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1609 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:03 pm

John Hill wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:45 am
Undried Plum wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:07 pm
Countries bombed by the US since the establishment of the Kaliningrad corridor in 1945:
What about Pakistan?


Pakistan. OK I'll give you Pakistan, but other than Pakistan: what have the Romans ever done for us?

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1610 Post by boing » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:29 pm

https://www.history.com › news › d-day-normandy-wwii-facts
D-Day: Facts About the 1944 WWII Invasion of Normandy - HISTORY

D-Day was the largest amphibious invasion in military history. According to the D-Day Center, the invasion, officially called "Operation Overlord," combined the forces of 156,115 U.S., British and...
The French probably call it the "Great day of French victory over all evil in the World when CdeG wrote the plan, controlled the forces and told the Allied leaders how the task should be carried out." Of course, CdeG was merely taking a long deserved rest in England while he taught the Americans and British how battles against Germany should be fought, after all, he had a lot of experience..


.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1611 Post by John Hill » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:51 pm

boing wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:59 pm


Now, there are outlying cases. Imagine that an army from another country is "invited" into a certain country by an unpopular leader to bolster his authority. Is this an invasion? I would suggest not because force is not used to enter the country and the entering army does not intend to take formal control but if the "invited" army needed to use force to subdue elements of the population to gain entry it would, I should think, become an invasion.

Oh, so the USSR did not invade Afghanistan in 1979.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1612 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:36 pm

John Hill wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:51 pm
boing wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:59 pm


Now, there are outlying cases. Imagine that an army from another country is "invited" into a certain country by an unpopular leader to bolster his authority. Is this an invasion? I would suggest not because force is not used to enter the country and the entering army does not intend to take formal control but if the "invited" army needed to use force to subdue elements of the population to gain entry it would, I should think, become an invasion.

Oh, so the USSR did not invade Afghanistan in 1979.
Bugghah!

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12986
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1613 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:44 pm

Pakistan. OK I'll give you Pakistan, but other than Pakistan: what have the Romans ever done for us?
Bugghah!
A polemicist who will admit the exceptions to / the holes in his argument is always worth reading.
Especially in Interesting Times.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1614 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:14 am

The guy from Hope Arkansas bombed Pakistan.

Yup, the guy who got bombed with chicken soup stains on the dress of a slightly slutty jewess.

They knew very exactly where to bomb those bible schools in Northern Pakistan as the CIA had has them built in the 1980s to their own specifications and with their own money when it was fashionable to overthrow a liberal government of Afghanistan which allowed women to be educated to university level in Kabul while wearing miniskirts.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1615 Post by John Hill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:31 am

When did Clinton bomb Pakistan?
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1616 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:39 am

When he was President and could do so with a more or less straight hard-on.

He used penis substitutes cruise missiles launched from ships offshore.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1617 Post by John Hill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:39 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:39 am
When he was President and could do so with a more or less straight hard-on.

He used penis substitutes cruise missiles launched from ships offshore.

I think that was Afghanistan but if I recall correctly there was a touchy issue regarding cruise missiles have to pass over Pakistan on the way. A highly successful operation which blew down a couple of Bin Liner's tents and put a few chooks off their lay.

Are you talking about some other time?
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1618 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:50 am

John Hill wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:39 am
Undried Plum wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:39 am
When he was President and could do so with a more or less straight hard-on.

He used penis substitutes cruise missiles launched from ships offshore.

I think that was Afghanistan but if I recall correctly there was a touchy issue regarding cruise missiles have to pass over Pakistan on the way. A highly successful operation which blew down a couple of Bin Liner's tents and put a few chooks off their lay.

Are you talking about some other time?
No. That was the time. The madrassa was on the Pak side of the border, which is why the CIA put it there in the first place.

John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1619 Post by John Hill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:03 am

Hmmmmm, OK then, but I am not convinced.

Operation Infinite Reach targeted an Al-Qaeda training camp in Zhawar Kili Al-Badr, Afghanistan.

Drone wars in Pakistan have killed thousands.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1620 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:17 am

Plinking pickups with an anti-tank weapon in the crosshairs of an IR display showing a Toyota Hilux is a very American thing to to do.

So easy to claim Victory that way, innit.

Samesame NLAWS and Javelin. That's why they're letting/encouraging the savages to settle old family scores in Ukraine with such weaponry.

Plus: it makes loadsa munny for the military-industrial complex too.

Merchants of death have to eat too, y'know. It's not easy in peace time for them.

Post Reply