Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

A place to discuss politics and things related to Govts
Message
Author
John Hill
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5695
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:40 pm
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1621 Post by John Hill » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:26 am

A good thing about drones is that in the great majority of cases the dead people were 'militants' , the drones will get them all even the three year old ones.
Been in data comm since we formed the bits individually with a Morse key.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1622 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:35 am

boing wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:59 pm
UP

This is becoming a rather pedantic discussion but I suppose a correct definition of terms is important.

This is the Oxford English dictionary definition of invasion.
Meaning of invasion in English
invasion
noun [ C or U ]
uk
an occasion when an army or country uses force to enter and take control of another country:
Note.

The fact that the invading army contains an element of nationals from the country being invaded is not relevant. The major concept of an invasion is those from without "using force to take control of another country". In reality the invading force could consist entirely of those originally from a country who are now reentering their original country to retake control. If this was an internal event it would be something like a revolution or a coupe, the fact that it is taking place from without characterises it as an invasion.

In the case of Norway the invasion could be considered as an attempt to remove the puppet government installed by the Germans but the simple fact is, no matter how laudable the intent, entry into a country by force is by definition an invasion regardless of its intent. ie "uses force to enter and take control of another country". For example we could claim that our country is invaded by tourists, in a way we could say that there is an army purely based on numbers, we could say they take control of the country when they are present BUT we could not claim they enter the country by force so we have no true invasion.

As a support for these claims I present the "D-day Invasion of Europe". Carried out with the best of intentions by a force containing many nationals of the country being invaded and with the support of a welcoming population but it is still historically considered an invasion.

Now, there are outlying cases. Imagine that an army from another country is "invited" into a certain country by an unpopular leader to bolster his authority. Is this an invasion? I would suggest not because force is not used to enter the country and the entering army does not intend to take formal control but if the "invited" army needed to use force to subdue elements of the population to gain entry it would, I should think, become an invasion.
Boing's intelligent post is cogent.

Russia's recovery of Crimea was clearly legitimate. Their rescue of Donbas is perhaps questionable in its manner, but is reasonable. An attempted takeover of Kiev was idiotic and illegal and doomed.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1623 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:43 am

John Hill wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:26 am
A good thing about drones is that in the great majority of cases the dead people were 'militants' , the drones will get them all even the three year old ones.
Another good thing about drone kills on Hiluxes is that The Empire can claim that they've killed the leader of whatever.

Lick fore-finger tip; wipe a name off the blackboard; buy a round of KoolAid.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12984
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1624 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:54 pm

One notes the shopping mall destruction in Kremenchuk.

The media reporting here is typical:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... s-trapped/

Not to justify, but to explain:

The centre of Kremenchuk contains 4 major sites
1. A major factory
2. Railway marshaling yards
3. Railway station with more marshaling facilities
4. The shopping mall.

They all border each other.
The marshaling facilities are the only ones for 100km in either direction, just before a major crossing of the Dnieper river with the same separation from other crossings.
The missile, inferred from other recent strikes, was an AS-4 Kitchen. It is well within the CEP of this missile for it to have been aimed at one of 1-3.
A second missile did hit 1.

So, this would appear to be a miss on a legitimate target. There is no doubt this fits within the usual definitions of a legitimate target in International Law. It does the western media no credit to completely ignore this. Primarily, in my view, because it therefore discredits all their hyperbole when the Russians hit an illegitimate target.

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1625 Post by Undried Plum » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:19 pm

I'm sure they teach propagandists in Propaganda 101 that the public has a short memory.

Any amount of bollocks can be published, even if it is quietly retracted later, because the public will remember the general tenor of the story without remembering any of the details.

The story of the brave defenders of Snake Island is just one example. Supposedly they were killed immediately after making a defiant radio broadcast on Ch16. Actually that was bollocks. They surrendered and were treated well, but the impression is left in the psyche that Ukrainians are plucky little happychappies facing a superior enemy.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1626 Post by Pontius Navigator » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:25 pm

One of our Cold War DGZ was the Naval HQ of the Baltic Fleet, clearly a legitimate military target. I think it was in Nevsky Prospekt. There was a risk of collateral damage.

Many of our other targets were military airfields. If the enemy builds airfields near cities then there is likely to be more collateral damage.

One target we were assigned in the far east was an airfield. Only conventional bombs and we were briefed that the shanty town was right up to the airfield boundary.

The brief was not so much to avoid hitting the township but that it could confuse the radar picture. We would have been lucky to get a bomb on the airfield.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12984
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1627 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:27 pm

Although, in this particular case UP, that's a correct impression.

p.s. You aren't allowed to call it Propaganda 101 any more.

It's Journalism 102.

Journalism 101 is Sell Advertising. It used to be Get the Owner a Knighthood, but the money's the thing now.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 17208
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1628 Post by Boac » Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:45 pm

I wonder what Vlad's next party trick will be, having successfully reinforced NATO's presence along his western boundary.

Actually, I don't really want to think about it!

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1629 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:39 pm

I have seen other people sharing my desire to be as close to ground zero as possible.

prospector
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:37 am
Location: New Zealand
Gender:
Age: 84

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1630 Post by prospector » Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:38 am

https://www.rt.com/news/558105-nato-pre ... aign=Email

"NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters on Wednesday that increases in military spending and rising numbers of troop deployments in Eastern Europe since 2014 were carried out in anticipation of a conflict with Russia.

Speaking after a meeting of NATO members and partner states in Madrid, Stoltenberg accused Russia of “using force in the eastern Donbass since 2014,” despite the fact that Kiev’s forces have shelled cities in the region ever since the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics declared independence from Ukraine that year.

Nevertheless, Stoltenberg said that the US-led military bloc decided in 2014 to start beefing up its forces in Eastern Europe."

A more truthful statement would be To entice Russia to go into Ukraine so we can test all our new weaponry on somebody elses patch.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1631 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:47 am

Theodore Roosevelt's Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine (1905)

User avatar
Undried Plum
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7308
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
Location: 56°N 4°W

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1632 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:49 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:39 pm
I have seen other people sharing my desire to be as close to ground zero as possible.
I remember in the mid-1970s Duncan Campbell obtained hundreds of pages of classified material on the "civil defence" plans for SouthEast Scotland in the event of a Soviet nuke attack. He held a public meeting in Edinburgh's Playhouse theatre to spill the beans.

First, he showed the then known Soviet target list on a huge map:
Leuchars, Rosyth (airburst), Pitreavie (groundburst), HQ Army Scotland (immediately adjacent to Edinburgh's then Western boundary), central Edinburgh (specifically the intersection bewteen George Street and Frederick Street) and Grangemouth oil refinery and petrochem works.

He then showed the "civil defence" plan. The idea was to throw a cordon around Edinburgh, approximately along what is now the route of the ring road, to contain survivors within the smoking ruins and to prevent them from marauding the countryside in search of food. For me, the most shocking thing was the plan to arm Traffic Wardens with SLRs and Stirling SMGs to enforce the cordon. Yes, traffic wardens with machine guns. :ymsick:

Leuchars, though no longer an active FJ station, still exists intact and would certainly be still on the target list.
Rosyth still exists as a reserve naval station though it's not used by the RN to any significant extent in peacetime. I'm pretty sure that it would still be on the target list.
Pitreavie is comprehensively dismantled. The bunker complex was demolished by the Army and the whole place is now a housing estate.
HQ Army Scotland still exists underground, though it's no longer used in its original capacity and the MQs are now civvie housing, so not much of a target.

Grangemouth, as Scotland's sole refinery, is undoubtedly on the remaining target list. If the NATO crazies really do go so far as to provoke a nuke attack, I hope the Russkie's use the biggest bucket of sunshine they've got in their cupboard if they insist on attacking Grangemouth as it's only about five miles from here.

A silent flash of light and it's all over. No need for Immobilon injections for any of us.

G-CPTN
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 7594
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale
Gender:
Age: 79

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1633 Post by G-CPTN » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:35 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:49 am

Grangemouth, as Scotland's sole refinery, is undoubtedly on the remaining target list. I hope the Russkie's use the biggest bucket of sunshine they've got in their cupboard if they insist on attacking Grangemouth as it's only about five miles from here.
A silent flash of light and it's all over. No need for Immobilon injections for any of us.
Or for 'Home Guard' roaming the streets picking off survivors with a Lee-Enfield .303.

Pontius Navigator
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 14669
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: Gravity be the clue
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1634 Post by Pontius Navigator » Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:42 am

UP, a fair summation though it presumes someone maintaining the target set for most economical use of a limited supply of weapons.

The 'just in case' option remains the best course of action. You can be assured that Kinloss, Lossie, Leuchars, Stornoway, Saxa, Benbecullia (sic), Peterhead, Machrihanish, Dundonald Hill, Prestwick, Faslane, Holy Loch, East Fortune, Edzell, Raasay, Loch Ewe, and Glasgow Central will all be on their little list.

When the V Force disbanded RAF Waddington went into care and maintenance (neglect). As it was readied for the arrival of 8 Sqn and the E3 works and bricks duly refreshed all the road markings and parking bays, even those designated for the Co's of long disbanded sqns.

I don't imagine the Russians would be any better.

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12984
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1635 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:32 pm

With limited weapons, I'm not sure that Armageddon today would involve any military targets outside the nuke forces and the front line. I suspect countervalue might yield (pun intended) a higher level of collapse in the enemy.
However, there's a huge bunch of assumptions in that argument also, not least any "Mineshaft Gap" =))
I note a bunch of photos on a Russia-supporting twitter account showed photos of HQs inside major cities.
Hopefully, we'll never know (one way or the other). Cue heavy drinking of quality alcohol (as per).
My nearest target is 218 miles away.

k3k3
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1492
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:44 pm
Location: In the Transit Lounge

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1636 Post by k3k3 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:55 pm

I'm about 30 miles along the coast from Plymouth, Gulp!

User avatar
Fox3WheresMyBanana
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 12984
Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
Location: Great White North
Gender:
Age: 61

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1637 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:21 pm

If you are in God's own country of Kernow, then you will likely be upwind and therefore fine. You won't even need telling not to look toward Devon, and everyone east of you acts like they have three heads anyway, so it will be no big deal if they turn up actually with three heads.
If you are in the Torquay direction, then you will be well acquainted with a combination of stress, misery, and chaos, which is why they set 'Fawlty Towers' there :D ;)

User avatar
4mastacker
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: With the wife
Gender:
Age: 76

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1638 Post by 4mastacker » Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:27 pm

.....He then showed the "civil defence" plan.....
In a previous life, I was mis-employed posted out-of-trade doing stuff which involved such "plans". Went to many different places for meetings with those supposedly in charge of such matters and my thoughts were frequently "We're s*******d", or a banned word to that effect, if it ever came to exchanging instant sunshine. One can only wonder if t'other side were in a similar predicament. Mind you, the various ministries visited did lay on a good lunch.
It's always my fault - SWMBO

User avatar
boing
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 2714
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:32 am
Location: Beautful Oregon USA
Gender:
Age: 77

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1639 Post by boing » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:25 pm

Had a target in downtown Moscow once. Since we were supposed to be at low-level our lead-in to the target was the vertical wall of some stadium near the target. Our flight time would have been about three hours I guess, the flight time of the missiles would be about 90 minutes and you could bet a lot of them were going to be impacting near our target. So, we had the great prospect of looking ahead, seeing the missile impacts from hundreds of miles away, continuing to fly towards a completely obliterated target area and dropping our comparatively measly weapon on a great pile of glowing cinders.

Seemed a bit pointless really although we would have done it.

.
the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

User avatar
OFSO
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 18600
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
Gender:
Age: 80

Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1640 Post by OFSO » Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:54 pm

Obviously nobody here ever signed the Official Secrets Act, other than myself.

Post Reply