Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3821 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:35 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:08 pm
BTR-50s.
Apart from dragging T-34s off of plinths and out of museums, this is the bottom of the Russian storage barrel.
The APC version was withdrawn in the mid-1960s. These command versions are based on that chassis.

It will be used in the role of "Target for Ukrainian Army" or "Waster of Ukrainian Ammo". :ymdevil:

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3822 Post by llondel » Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:44 pm

PHXPhlyer wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:35 pm

It will be used in the role of "Target for Ukrainian Army" or "Waster of Ukrainian Ammo". :ymdevil:
That was my immediate thought too.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3823 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:00 pm

Load Reapers up with explosives. Trigger it next time the Russians interfere.
Job jobbed.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3824 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:29 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:00 pm
Load Reapers up with explosives. Trigger it next time the Russians interfere.
Job jobbed.
Sidewinders are a lot less expensive than Reapers.
Just make sure you get #2 first then Lead.
No witnesses that way. :D

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3825 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:34 pm

We used to think about this kind of stuff all the time - there's not much else to do on QRA.
Reapers can't outmanoevres Flankers.
If the #1 is up close, the #2 normally sits behind the bogey in the perfect launch position. Any funny business and the bogey gets it.
You'd only get one, then Three - World War Three that is.
If you have it explode, then it can reasonably be claimed that the Russians triggered it.
And Reapers are cheaper than Flankers.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3826 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:39 pm

If they are stupid enough to fly right in front of it, as alleged, they should each get one up the pipe.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3827 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:40 pm

I would be surprised if more than one was in front at any time, for precisely the reason you mention.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3828 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:46 pm

This sequence from the latest Top Gun shows the rough situation, with two Russians intercepting Mav's F-14.
The deliberate error is that the second Russian is too close. In reality he'd be half a mile back dead astern.
This way there would be no need for the course correction to get the sights on that allows Mav the time/space to manoeuvre and defeat the missile. In fact, neither of the missile defeats would work with the second fighter further back.



..and the F-14 would just rip the fins off and spin if you split the throttles.
The valley run would make it difficult for the Russian to get a shot, but there's no need to go down there with him in that weather. Stay high and let the missile do the work.

But it's a movie.
I believe the total number of "It's not like that for real"s is over a thousand ;)))
But Joe Public likes it!

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3829 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:59 pm

Of course, the best kind of air combat is 1v1v1 - very exciting!


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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3830 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:07 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:59 pm
Of course, the best kind of air combat is 1v1v1 - very exciting!

Blocked by MGM. ~X( :((
At least it tells me the name of the movie about a man with no name. #:-S :))

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3831 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:37 pm

Not good...


Let's hope it is because they are conserving ammo for a Spring Offensive

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3832 Post by barkingmad » Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:39 am

Can a Su-27 ‘dump fuel’?

I thought these fighter chappies only suckled from other aircraft but never wasted it in liquid form.... :-?

Maybe our resident ace Top Guns can clarify this reportage please.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3833 Post by Woody » Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:58 am

When all else fails, read the instructions.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3834 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:58 am

dump.jpg
dump.jpg (23.09 KiB) Viewed 335 times
There generally isn't a problem with small fighters, but larger fighters with an interceptor role can carry a lot of fuel as a percentage of empty weight.
The Tornado F3 with ferry tanks could cross the Atlantic non-stop.
Certain problems on board can lead to a need to land ASAP at faster than normal speeds, and fuel weight increases those speeds still more.
The problem is worst when one has just completed Air-Air Refuelling.
So, fuel dump becomes a necessity.
Hydraulic leaks are the most common reason for using fuel dump. I did it twice for that reason.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3835 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:52 am

More on the drone destruction
Though the exact motives of the Russian pilot are unclear, U.S. officials do not see any clear indications one way or another that there was a deliberate intention to bring down the drone.

"There was [a] deliberate intent to interfere with the MQ-9, but the collision seems to be simple incompetence," an Air Force official separately told The War Zone.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/r ... -black-sea

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3836 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:04 pm

Fox, I know you were on low altitude interceptors 🤣 but it would be very difficult to formate with something as slow as the Reaper in a superdooper Flanker.
I know they lost 3 Fishbed trying for the U2.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3837 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:35 pm

Well, the F3 would have struggled, as the cruise speed of the Reaper was our landing speed.
I recall doing AAR off a Herc Down South. I think that was around 200kts, which was OK.
Much slower and the advice was to go for full landing configuration to maximise lift and throttle setting (for fast engine response).
I did this when I was tasked with reading the name of a ship once. We went past at about 160 kts. I wasn't wanging it about at that speed, just maintaining a straight path.
Judging from the airshow performance of the Flanker, it's capable of controlled manoeuvring flight down to that speed, but the question is whether the average squadron shag is. It appears not.
Unsurprising given the number of flying hours they get.

The standard technique for a pair intercepting a slow target is for the lead to pass by at a safe manoeuvring speed, say 200 kts, then turn away and come back.
Each aircraft flies an advancing racetrack with one always in firing position behind.
From the odd bit of video I've seen, that seems to be standard for the Rooskies too.
Looks like the Flanker that hit wasn't far enough offset.
I did know an RAF pilot who'd touched an aircraft he was intercepting, but that was night and lights out (pre-NVGs, of course).

p.s. I liked low altitude stuff! We would often get the role of fighter sweep for a low level package overland, oodles of fun. If you kept the radar in maximum sweep, 120 degree/8 bar scan, most attackers wouldn't pick you up on RWR, and were most surprised to be shot in the face by a pair of GR1s, or so they had thought.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3838 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:55 pm

Re night VID, one night we were controlling a singleton F4 while acting as target. Our engineer suspected an oil leak on #2 on the outboard side.

We asked the F4 if he had a torch and could be have a look. Yes to both.

I don't recall our speed but probably around 180kts. I went down the back and saw the F4 nosing in between #1 & 2, high AOA, as the pilot got as close as he could so the Nav could see.

We had assumed that all F4 carried a hand held Night Sun to illuminate the Bear 😁 he actually had a miniscule aircrew torch, the little black hobby, that was designed to eat a set of batteries per trip (whether you used it or not).

We called knock off and did what we should have done a couple of hours earlier and set off for home.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3839 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:04 pm

I recall the look of horror on our new Norwegian exchange officer's face when he asked where the spotlight was to illuminate the target at night, and was told there wasn't one.

The pre-Stage 1 radar in the F3 was worse than anything previous in close, including the original Mk IV of 1941, and would only get you in to about 200 yds. Then you had to edge in the last 200 on the occasional blip, luck and witchcraft. More than a little exciting on a lights-out target.

..and you've reminded me that holding station on a Shack at 180 kts was quite straightforward in the F3, and I was definitely not the World's Best at formation flying.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#3840 Post by PHXPhlyer » Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:14 pm

VIDEO: US military releases footage of Russian fighter jet forcing down American drone over Black Sea

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/vid ... -black-sea

US European Command released footage of the Tuesday encounter between a US surveillance drone and the Russian fighter jets as it played out over the Black Sea.

The newly declassified video depicts critical moments in the mid-air encounter, which the Pentagon said lasted between 30 and 40 minutes.

The video shows the camera of the MQ-9 Reaper drone pointed backward toward its tail and the drone's propeller, which is mounted on the rear, spinning. Then, a Russian Sukhoi SU-27 fighter jet is shown approaching. As it draws closer, the Russian fighter jet dumps fuel as it intercepts the US drone.

In another portion of the footage, the Russian jet makes another pass. As it approaches, it again dumps fuel. The video from the drone is then disrupted as the Russian fighter jet collides with the MQ-9 Reaper, damaging the propeller and ultimately forcing the US to bring down the drone in the Black Sea. Russia has denied that a collision occurred.

When the camera comes back online in the footage, the view is again pointed backward, and the propeller is shown damaged from the collision. With the propeller damaged, the drone operators effectively flew the aircraft as a glider as it descended over the Black Sea, bringing it down in international waters southwest of Crimea. On its way down, two US officials told CNN the operators remotely wiped the drone's sensitive software, mitigating the risk of secret materials falling into enemy hands before it crashed into the water.

The downing of the drone marked the first time Russian and US military aircraft have come into direct physical contact since Moscow launched its invasion of Ukraine.

Despite the release of the dramatic footage, and back and forth over who is to blame, the Biden administration has not said it will take action against Russia over the downing of the drone, perhaps indicating a desire to not further escalate tensions after the Kremlin said Wednesday that relations between Moscow and Washington are at their "lowest point."

A senior Biden administration official said the footage "absolutely confirms" that there was a physical collision and dumping of fuel, but it does not confirm the pilot's intent.

On Wednesday two US officials familiar with the intelligence told CNN that senior officials at the Russian Ministry of Defense gave the order for the Russian fighter jets to harass a US drone over the Black Sea this week.

The high-level military officials' connection to the incident suggests that the fighter jet pilots were not taking rogue action when they interfered with the US drone.

But, at this time there is no indication that the highest of political leaders in Russia -- particularly those in the Kremlin, including President Vladimir Putin -- knew about the planned aggression in advance, one of the US officials said.

National Security Council communications coordinator John Kirby said on "CNN This Morning" Wednesday that the drone had not been recovered and that he was "not sure" the US would be able to recover it.

Moscow had made clear it would attempt to retrieve the wreckage of the drone, and two officials told CNN Wednesday that Russia had reached the MQ-9 crash site in the Black Sea. Kirby would not confirm the reported development, but said the US had "made it impossible for them to be able to glean anything of intelligence value off the remnants of that drone, whatever remnants there might be on the surface of the water."

The Kremlin has said a decision on whether to retrieve the drone will come from Russia's Ministry of Defense.

"This is the prerogative of the military. If they believe that it is necessary for our interests and our security in the Black Sea, they will do it," Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told reporters on a conference call Thursday.

Peskov said he did not know what the ministry has decided.

Moscow and Washington have been in contact through military and diplomatic channels following the incident.

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