Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

[TheGreenGoblin]

[FD2]

One notes the Russians are claiming a fire on board while the Ukrainians are claiming a couple of missile hits.

Of course, both might be true.

Shortly after the Berlin Wall came down, this Cold War Warrior was sitting in an office in a HQ in Germany and a translation of a paper (Bundeswher?) crossed his desk. Part of it was a report on Russian Army munitions handling. Words like lamentable, poor safety and dangerous littered the report.

If the same is true of the Russian Navy this could well have been a spectacular 'own goal'. Or, if not, a deflection.

My recollection is that the cruise missiles on this class of vessel were nuclear capable which may have consequences.

There are sixteen launchers in the traditional Soviet style down each side - Kresta Class cruiser style onwards. The launchers are totally exposed and again in the Soviet style the ships are so crammed with weapons that we used to wonder whether the systems could all be manned at the same time and if they could, where all the men lived. Anyway it would seem to be the height of folly to keep nuclear tipped cruise missiles in those launchers. If any of those missiles were nuclear tipped there would have to be a significant amount of radiation floating around now, or if the warheads are now sitting on the bottom of the Black Sea then an urgent salvage operation will be underway asap. Or the 'nuclear tipped' rumour is just that - a rumour. I see the ship was being refitted for seven years - either a complete makeover or one of the slowest refits ever.

I should feel a scintilla of sympathy for them but I can't summon any for people serving that despot in Moscow in an unjust war. I hope he is eliminated or disappeared to the asylum before he's tempted to go nuclear.

[TheGreenGoblin]

One notes the Russians are claiming a fire on board while the Ukrainians are claiming a couple of missile hits.

Of course, both might be true.

Shortly after the Berlin Wall came down, this Cold War Warrior was sitting in an office in a HQ in Germany and a translation of a paper (Bundeswher?) crossed his desk. Part of it was a report on Russian Army munitions handling. Words like lamentable, poor safety and dangerous littered the report.

If the same is true of the Russian Navy this could well have been a spectacular 'own goal'. Or, if not, a deflection.

My recollection is that the cruise missiles on this class of vessel were nuclear capable which may have consequences.

There are sixteen launchers in the traditional Soviet style down each side - Kresta Class cruiser style onwards. The launchers are totally exposed and again in the Soviet style the ships are so crammed with weapons that we used to wonder whether the systems could all be manned at the same time and if they could, where all the men lived. Anyway it would seem to be the height of folly to keep nuclear tipped cruise missiles in those launchers. If any of those missiles were nuclear tipped there would have to be a significant amount of radiation floating around now, or if the warheads are now sitting on the bottom of the Black Sea then an urgent salvage operation will be underway asap. Or the 'nuclear tipped' rumour is just that - a rumour. I see the ship was being refitted for seven years - either a complete makeover or one of the slowest refits ever.

I should feel a scintilla of sympathy for them but I can't summon any for people serving that despot in Moscow in an unjust war. I hope he is eliminated or disappeared to the asylum before he's tempted to go nuclear.

An accurate summation Sir.

At every level!

+1

[Rwy in Sight]

I should feel a scintilla of sympathy for them but I can't summon any for people serving that despot in Moscow in an unjust war. I hope he is eliminated or disappeared to the asylum before he's tempted to go nuclear.

I am not sure I agree fully here. People living under those regimes have limited chance of eliminating their problematic leaders. That part of the world either in the form of USSR or Russia has a long tradition of a very firm control applied by the top people and even the top person to the control room if I may so, I am afraid there is little chance the leader of this country is send to the asylum any time soon

[FD2]

Yes - of course it's just about impossible to depose people like Putin, Kim and co., and strangely there seems to be a love of the old days in Russia, under tyrants like Stalin who were responsible for so many millions of deaths. It is widely known in Russia that service in the their armed forces is extremely brutal and we are assured by Putin that he is not sending conscripts into battle , so the men who are fighting in Ukraine are volunteers.

I shouldn't glory in anyone's death but I'm afraid I cannot feel any sympathy for them. The war crimes committed by the army in the towns, villages and cities they have occupied disgusts me and signifies a lack of control by the Russian officers or their complicity in what I am sure will be judged to be war crimes. They seem to have one strategy - in Syria, Chechnya (2) and now Ukraine - level buildings, terrorise and murder the locals. Yes it is unlikely anyone will stick the top dog in an asylum but I pray that someone will have the courage to put a bullet in his head and a stake through his heart.

For too long the West has been cowed by the mystique of the Soviet and then Russian forces but they have proved, when not using overwhelming strength in numbers to be, if not easy to beat, then not so daunting as we in the West have believed for so long. Ukraine has right on its side which helps a lot.

[Boac]

The late value of this thread...

A little puzzled as to what you mean?

[PHXPhlyer]

Russia warned US of "unpredictable consequences" if weapons shipments to Ukraine continue, sources say

Russia this week formally protested the US’ ongoing shipment of weapons to Ukraine, sending a diplomatic note to the State Department warning of “unpredictable consequences” should the support continue, according to two US officials and another source familiar with the document.

The note, known as a démarche, was sent earlier this week as the administration was preparing to announce that it would be sending a new military aid package worth $800 million to the Ukrainians. The Washington Post first reported on the document.

The US has for the first time agreed to provide Kyiv with the types of high-power capabilities some officials in US President Joe Biden's administration viewed as too much of an escalation risk a few short weeks ago, including 11 Mi-17 helicopters, 18 155 mm Howitzer cannons and 300 more Switchblade drones.

A source familiar with the Russian diplomatic note said it was expected that Moscow would protest the shipments, and it was still unclear whether it means Russia will change their behavior in any way. But this person acknowledged that it could signal a more aggressive Russian posture against the US and NATO as the war drags on.

CNN previously reported that the United States believes Russian President Vladimir Putin’s risk tolerance has increased, and that he may be willing to take more aggressive action against the US in response to its support for Ukraine.

Asked for comment, a US official said “we won’t confirm any private diplomatic correspondence. What we can confirm is that, along with Allies and partners, we are providing Ukraine with billions of dollars worth of security assistance, which our Ukrainian partners are using to extraordinary effect to defend their country against Russia's unprovoked aggression and horrific acts of violence.”

So it is OK for Russia to ship munitions to Ukraine but not anyone else?

PP

[ricardian]

Updated kit

[llondel]

The US response to the diplomatic note should be along the lines of "If you stop sending munitions into Ukraine then so will we".

If the Russians do get their arses handed to them in Eastern Ukraine then it's highly likely that the Russian top brass will try to take down Putin before he has them all shot.

[PHXPhlyer]

The US response to the diplomatic note should be along the lines of "If you stop sending munitions into Ukraine then so will we".

If the Russians do get their arses handed to them in Eastern Ukraine then it's highly likely that the Russian top brass will try to take down Putin before he has them all shot.

I'm not going to be holding my breath on that possibility.

PP

[PHXPhlyer]

Had an epiphany while being dragged around by the big dog.
NATO needs to declare war on Ukraine.
Send many cruise missiles and armed drones their way. Take out tanks, artillery, radar, etc.
Then apologize to the Russians, that honest mistakes were made. misidentifying Russian assets for Ukrainian ones.
OOPS!
Too bad. So sad. Never mind.

PP

[prospector]

A different viewpoint from somebody who has been there, the veracity of his statements will no doubt be cause for debate.

https://www.rt.com/russia/553933-britis ... aign=Email

“They [the Ukrainian soldiers] looted supermarkets when civilians needed food to survive in the encircled city; they [the military] took food from the supermarkets. They would stop civilians [from] going out to get water. They would stop civilians from taking water from a supermarket that had been looted; water they had themselves taken."

[llondel]

A different viewpoint from somebody who has been there, the veracity of his statements will no doubt be cause for debate.

https://www.rt.com/russia/553933-britis ... aign=Email

“They [the Ukrainian soldiers] looted supermarkets when civilians needed food to survive in the encircled city; they [the military] took food from the supermarkets. They would stop civilians [from] going out to get water. They would stop civilians from taking water from a supermarket that had been looted; water they had themselves taken."

The source makes it somewhat suspect. Most of us would note some element of truth in it but would consider "they" to be [the Russian soldiers].

[FD2]

PHOTO-2022-04-16-20-23-06.jpg (50.04 KiB) Viewed 485 times

[TheGreenGoblin]

PHOTO-2022-04-16-20-23-06.jpg

[ricardian]

Promotion or role change?

[boing]

I wonder if anyone has dared to point out to Putin that any radioactive dust from nukes in Ukraine will almost certainly blow back over Russia. Even Moscow could get some if the wind is in the right direction.

.

[Rwy in Sight]

I am not sure such issues will heavily weigh on his thoughts whether or not he goes ahead and uses nuclear weapons.

[prospector]

17 Apr, 2022 15:09
HomeWorld News
Ukraine offensive 'no more scandalous’ than invading Iraq – ex-French ambassador
Gérard Araud also predicts that Europe will not get involved in an “Asian NATO”
Ukraine offensive 'no more scandalous’ than invading Iraq – ex-French ambassador
FILE PHOTO: US Marines burn their fortifications on front line positions before pulling out of the city of Fallujah, Iraq, April 30, 2004 © AP / John Moore
The former French ambassador to the US and UN Gérard Araud has told China’s Global Times that resentment at the “double standards” of the West is likely turning some countries off supporting Washington’s position on Russia. He added that while the European Union is following America’s lead in regards to Moscow, it will not do the same when it comes to China.

The Chinese joined more than 40 others in voting against, or abstaining from, a motion condemning Russia’s offensive in Ukraine at a meeting of the United Nations last month. India, Pakistan and South Africa were among those who refused to back Washington's line, which didn’t surprise Araud.

“There is a colonial past which is feeding some resentment. There is also the fact that the West is lecturing the rest of the world and using double standards very often,” the former diplomat told the state-owned Global Times on Thursday.

“I'm quite aware that, after all, invading Ukraine is no more scandalous than invading Iraq in 2003,” he continued. “France opposed the invasion of Iraq by the US. But it's a good example of what you can call double standards.”

China rejects US ‘pressure or coercion’ over Russia
Read more China rejects US ‘pressure or coercion’ over Russia
China’s leaders have repeatedly cited the “double standards” of the West in explaining their decision not to sanction or condemn Russia over the Ukrainian conflict. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian told reporters on Thursday that his country will reject American “pressure or coercion” to do so.

When NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg demanded China condemn Russia last month, the Chinese Foreign Ministry refused, citing NATO’s deadly bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, Serbia in 1999 as one reason it won’t listen to a “lecture on justice from the abuser of international law.”

China has also denounced America’s attempts to build alliances against it in the Pacific region. Stoltenberg has talked of stepping up cooperation between NATO and its “Asia-Pacific partners,” while the US-led ‘AUKUS’ (along with the UK and Australia) and ‘Quad’ (along with Australia, India and Japan) pacts have been fiercely protested by Beijing. The Chinese Foreign Ministry recently described the former agreement as an attempt to build an “Asia-Pacific version of NATO” that is “doomed to fail.”

“There will not be an Asian NATO, or if there is an Asian NATO, Europeans are not going to be part of it,” Araud stated. While the former diplomat said that he could foresee a new “Cold War between the West and Russia,” in which “European countries won't accept business as usual with Russia anymore,” the same will not happen with regard to China.

“China is not a military threat against Europe,” he said. “There is no reason to have this inflammatory rhetoric that the Americans are using against China.”

Araud served as France’s ambassador to the United Nations between 2009 and 2014, and then as ambassador to the US until 2019. Throughout this time he became known for controversial statements, angering the French right when he declared the “world is collapsing before our eyes” after the election of Donald Trump in 2016, and enraging Americans when he chose Pearl Harbor Day in 2017 to condemn the US for refusing “to side with France and the UK to confront the fascist powers in the 30s.”

[om15]

Reported today in the news, Ukraine is applying to join the EU,

Ukraine has filled out a questionnaire for its bid to join the European Union, an official announced Sunday.

The process to join could take years, but this marks another step closer.

Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, welcomed Ukraine’s application earlier this month and delivered the questionnaire in person to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

She said: “We are with you as you dream of Europe. ... Ukraine belongs in the European family."

“We will accelerate this process as much as we can, while ensuring that all conditions are respected.

I would have thought that Ukraine has enough problems at the moment without being a member of the EU as well, this is the same EU that is spending a Billion a day on Russian energy, Ursula von der Leyen is oblivious to the irony here, it is Germany that has funded Putin's invasion