Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1561 Post by boing » Tue May 17, 2022 1:43 am

I captured it as a still from a video clip. If I see it again I will pass it on.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1562 Post by prospector » Tue May 17, 2022 1:56 am

A very good explanation as to why both sides have to be heard as to why this war has been instigated.



And another reason why this war will drag on,


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Re: Early cracks appearing.

#1563 Post by prospector » Wed May 18, 2022 7:43 am

Another version of why and who benefits from all this military assistance, from somebody who started from the coal face. takes a while but an interesting take on the Ukraine situation, and many others.


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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1564 Post by barkingmad » Wed May 18, 2022 8:29 am

I can’t help being reminded of the Soviet adventure in Afghanistan 1979-1989, triggered by the US, in order to provide the Soviets with their very own Vietnam war.

The aim was to bleed the Soviets militarily and economically to hasten the demise of the Union, and so it came to pass.

This article takes a sideways look at the current mess and attempts to decode some of the mysteries of the ‘tribes’ involved and the possible larger geo-political motives for Western actions;

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/wer ... krainians/

It’s reassuring to know that over here in geographical Europe, we’re right slap bang in the middle of the no-mans’ land between the 2 main enemies and if the European economy has to come off worst, then we have served our purpose in providing a buffer and a proxy in the interests of Uncle Sam or Sleepy Joe and his string-pullers. :-ss

That’s assuming that the many “Buckets of Sunshine”, whether tactical or strategic, will remain locked up and not thrown around to hasten the ultimate end for all participants and non-participants alike.

Maybe time to (re)read Nevil Shute’s “On the Beach”, though I doubt the Antipodes would welcome the refugees... :-?

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1565 Post by prospector » Wed May 18, 2022 9:29 am



But all that was just Russian disinformation


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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1566 Post by boing » Wed May 18, 2022 3:51 pm

Several very pretty arguments but they are mere excuses for Russia. For years the leaders of Russia have been talking about rebuilding its once great empire, an empire based on military expansionism and ugly violence. Russia has also continuously interfered in other overseas wars such as Syria and Afghanistan going all the way back to Vietnam so it can't claim that it is innocent of mischief. Russia reached a pact with Hitler and would not even have fought Germany in WW2 if not for the fact that Germany invaded first. And if you really want to consider the early beginnings as it effects the UK go back to "The Great Game" in India.

Now consider Russia's involvement in the Ukraine, their occupation of historically Ukrainian land area in the East and Crimea. All this talk about how the supposedly mighty country of Russia was "Forced", forced by much weaker nations such as Belarus and Transdanepia, to involve itself in their politics, usually based on the tenuous fact that parts of their population spoke Russian. No, Russia has long planned on returning its neighbours to its control. Russia, in its own bubble, sees itself as this magnificent nation destined to control others, when in reality it is a vast and relatively useless mass of land that can best be valued for keeping Europe and Asia apart. The Russians have never forgiven the rest of the World for the fact that is an add-on, not the centre.

Who initiated the post WW2 arms race? Who moved into the middle European nations by force? Whose sabre rattling created the Cold War? Who built the Berlin Wall and tried to starve Berlin into submission? Who was always boasting that they had the most powerful nuclear weapons and military forces? Which nation killed millions of it's own citizens to establish a regime? Which nation put its own citizens in concentration camps? Which nation still fully suppresses free speech among its citizens? Which nation still poisons its opponents abroad?

Russia has a long, one might say historically continuous, record of expansionism, vain glory and unbelievable cruelty to its own and other peoples. It is a cancer that cannot, unfortunately, be treated by radiation therapy but a little blood letting to reduce its verve can not be a bad thing.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1567 Post by talmacapt » Wed May 18, 2022 4:45 pm

+1 boing.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1568 Post by Rwy in Sight » Wed May 18, 2022 7:13 pm

And that's a big + boing for coming from a Finnish guy. You have my vote too.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1569 Post by prospector » Wed May 18, 2022 7:13 pm

Which nation put its own citizens in concentration camps? It was not only Russia.

NPS.govPark HomeLearn About the ParkHistory & CulturePeopleJapanese Americans at War
Japanese Americans At War
One of the great ironies of the Second World War was America’s forced confinement of more than 120,000 Americans of Japanese ancestry. These Japanese Americans were held in camps that often were isolated, uncomfortable, and overcrowded. Although their families were treated unjustly in this way, more than 33,000 Japanese Americans served in the military with distinction.

Why did this violation of civil rights occur? The United States of the 1940s was a nation that struggled to overcome its racial, cultural, and religious differences. The Japanese American community was isolated and small amidst a sea of neighbors who seethed with understandable anger over Japan’s attack against Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. While Americans examined the members of the German and Italian Americans populations individually, most saw their Japanese neighbors as alien and untrustworthy; hysterical and false reports by journalists fueled this suspicion. On February 12, 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt caved in to the pressure and signed Executive Order 9066 that condemned over 120,000 of his fellow Americans to detention camps for the rest of the war.

With less than two weeks notice, and without trials, the U.S. Government forced these Americans of Japanese ancestry to abandon millions of dollars in property. These refugees then were sent to large confinement sites in the western, southwestern, and southern United States; others went to smaller facilities across the nation. While living in overcrowded conditions behind barbed wires, these Americans attempted to bring normalcy to their lives, they created newspapers, schools, markets, police forces, and fire fighting squads.

While their families were confined, more than 33,000 Japanese Americans played a major role in the war effort. Why did they serve the nation under these difficult circumstances? Many of them loved their country enough to risk their lives in combat. For others, it was the chance to prove their loyalty and the honor of their families; this they did as members of the famed 442nd Regimental Combat Team fighting up the rugged Italian Peninsula and across Southern France. Others interrogated Japanese prisoners and translated Japanese documents in the Army’s Military Intelligence Section in the Pacific and China-Burma-India Theaters. Over eight hundred Japanese Americans were killed in action serving their country.

The Japanese American Memorial to Patriotism During World War II honors those Japanese Americans who endured humiliation and rose above adversity to serve their country during one of this nation's great trials. This National Park Service site stands at the intersection of Louisiana Avenue and D Street, NW in Washington, D.C.

These arguments from past history just goes to show the stupidity of mainly egotistical politicians. Who was fighting who in the second world war, and who are now friendly nations?

The last politician with any sense in America was Eisenhower, he who warned of the danger of the military industrial complex gaining to much power. That certainly has proven to be true.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1570 Post by boing » Wed May 18, 2022 9:26 pm

The military, industrial --- add Government --- conspiracy is the most evil problem we face in the US. For instance, the stupidity and crass impropriety of giving pharma. companies billions of dollars to develop a vaccine and then allowing them to charge that same Government ridiculous amounts for the final product. Not to mention the highly suspect behaviour of having that same government enforcing the use of that product to the massive benefit of the producers. This is not a matter of anti- or pro- vaccine, the financial shenanigans are a separate matter entirely. No doubt we will find that weaponry was as profitable as vaccines.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1571 Post by prospector » Wed May 18, 2022 9:36 pm

If I was an American citizen, I would likely vote Republican, but only to my way of thinking it is the lesser of two evils, but the only politician I have heard lately that I would have any time for is a Democrat, this one


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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1572 Post by Boac » Fri May 20, 2022 8:56 am

The topic title is totally apposite. It is necessary to move the topic on from a focus on Ukraine to a bigger picture for NATO and the west.

We have now committed our military to support for the Finland and Sweden prior to their membership of NATO. We would, in the event of their joining NATO, be committed to significant deployment of forces on NATO exercises to those counties. Could we sustain that? A significant worrying thought is that if accession to NATO is not forthcoming, how long does our 'commitment' go on for?

Our current military state is weak - we have eaten into significant amounts of equipment to assist Ukraine - this drain will only intensify in the short term. I see no signs of recognition in our moribund government of this.

It is my opinion that the evidence we see in the Ukraine needs to be recognised and more importantly acted on - we do not need another ineffective PM saying 'we are looking at this'. The equipment for our forces needs to be urgently reviewed in the light of what we see in Ukraine in preparation for a possible action on the mainland. Our (and NATO) military posture needs to wake up. Are we prepared (militarily and politically) for a demented Putin to provoke us by an action which would trigger Article 5?

I have watched the UK dissolve into an inefficient, corrupt and largely ineffective country under the Conservatives - just look at what 'is not working properly' - I dread that applying to our armed forces too.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1573 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri May 20, 2022 4:10 pm

Equipment for Ukraine: If that equipment is destroying Russian military capability, then we will logically need less of it when the war is over. There are two caveats, I think.

1) Ukraine must be using the equipment efficiently - and they do seem to be.

2) That equipment is not usable against other potential aggressors.
I would contend that the other major aggressor western nations need to equip for is China, and that air and naval assets are far more use there. We are unlikely to be shipping Chally 3s to the Orient.

So, the Ukraine war, which essentially requires ground war equipment, is fine for donations - we should give them everything they ask for.

Obviously stuff like ATGMs and SAMs will need replacing. Here though, because they are working so well and are easy to produce, the key factor is likely increased international sales. I expect everyone and his dog will be looking to keep a couple of NLAWs on hand in the future. So, again, we should send Ukraine everything they ask for.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1574 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri May 20, 2022 4:28 pm

Welcome back Fox3.
You have been missed.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1575 Post by boing » Fri May 20, 2022 4:49 pm

BOAC

While generally agreeing with the tone of your post I need to comment on your last paragraph first.
I have watched the UK dissolve into an inefficient, corrupt and largely ineffective country under the Conservatives - just look at what 'is not working properly' - I dread that applying to our armed forces too.
This is not an issue of Con/Lab or Left/Right as you infer. Since the 50's in the UK it has been the habit that whenever a change of government occurs the first priority of the new group in power is to remove any traces of the last administration's work whether the result is logical or not. Both sides are equally guilty of these actions. If you wish to keep the focus on the military think about TSR2, F111, Skybolt, screwed up F4s, Buccaneer 2*, Ghurkas, etc, etc., and frankly some of these disasters were caused as much by inter-service rivalry as they were by government policy. As I imply this type of spiteful reaction is not limited to military projects. When the government starts working for the country rather than their own dogmas things may improve.

Having said that I generally agree with the rest of your comments. My concern for the future is that, as yet, we have not really come to grasp with what form a future conflict could take. I feel that as far as "advanced ?" countries are concerned the Ukraine/Russia conflict is the final case of classical warfare, big armies, masses of heavy military equipment, even the substantial end of manned combat aircraft. I know this has been claimed many times before but the Ukraine war has been a lesson in the limitations of classic military tactics. Why are we still following the medieval practice of capturing someone's Capital as representing a successful invasion? You do not need the Capital you need the resources, you need the oil or the lithium or the trade routes. This was demonstrated in Iraq, the attacking countries spent vast resources and manpower to hold Baghdad when all we (?) really needed was the oil fields, the pipe-lines and Basra. Excuse my blunt practicality.

My guess is that future war will not involve "capturing" territory per se but in "controlling" territory which is a very different thing which involves the "ability" to do rather than the "need" to do. Exactly how this is done will depend on electronic warfare, social manipulation, economic actions and, as an ultimate threat, high-precision long range missile systems. Nuclear weapons will become a far too blunt instrument compared with long-range precision missile strikes. Nuclear weapons will become the fall-back option for those countries with no advanced technical ability.

Edited to say "Hi Fox, how's the barn going?"

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1576 Post by admin2 » Fri May 20, 2022 6:22 pm

Fox3 - may I welcome you back!

(Hope the red ink doesn't upset too many =)) )

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1577 Post by Boac » Fri May 20, 2022 6:41 pm

All those TLAs and FLAs, Fox :))

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1578 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri May 20, 2022 6:53 pm

Welcome back Fox. A great pleasure to read your post.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1579 Post by G-CPTN » Fri May 20, 2022 6:55 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:53 pm
Welcome back Fox. A great pleasure to read your post.
Indeed - a welcome rave from the grave.

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Re: Millions of us might be **** if we ignore the Russian-Ukraine war

#1580 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri May 20, 2022 7:50 pm

Any report of my death was an exaggeration ;)

Looking forward to some intelligent and amusing discussion with all of you again.

Barn external rebuild complete, thanks. Inside work about halfway done. Still at least a year to finish, but mainly working on the house reno now.

On topic: I agree with Boing about what's usually called hybrid warfare. I think the reason countries aim to capture capitals and government IS to control the resources. It's more efficient to get some compliant (usually by a combination of threats, flattery and bribery) locals to govern the other locals and let you exploit the resources.

I think the key question for defence of the nation depends on three things. The first is whether the immediately ready forces can deliver a knockout blow. The second is whether the population of the nation can be effectively moved to a war footing - everybody from new recruits, through medical and logistics, to the remainder assisting in any way they can. The third is whether international support, if needed, can be obtained and sustained. For Ukraine, the answers are No, Yes, and Yes (but slowly). For the UK, my personal guess is Maybe, No, and Yes. However, the second thing being No renders the third moot. The defence thus rests on the Maybe. Ukraine is a country that can call on farmers, industrial workers, and relatively innovative tech people. My own country of Canada is the same. However, those type of people represent a minority of the UK population. As BOAC points out, the rest are desperately inefficient. The Russians are discovering that desperately inefficient and corrupt leads to defeat.

My main concern with this war is that it won't be finished fast enough to stop major consequences worldwide, and I think it may already be past that point. The support from too many countries, whilst good now, came too late to stop this effect. I'm sure Ukraine will win, and possibly quite soon, but I think the damage to world agriculture is already huge, although we will not see the big effects for a few months yet.

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