Just another school shooting, yawn.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#181 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:31 pm

boing wrote:
Fri Jun 03, 2022 4:19 pm

2. Create severe, non-reducible, penalties for anyone possessing a firearm illegally under various circumstances in a public place. This could produce an extensive list but would include.
a. A person who could not pass the requirement for legal possession.
b. A person under court order not to possess a firearm.
c. Carriage of a concealed weapon on the person unless properly authorised.
d. Possession of a firearm known to have been used in a crime.
This point alone would go a long way towards reducing gun violence.
The only problem is that these are usually after the fact.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#182 Post by boing » Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:45 pm

"The only problem is that these are usually after the fact."

In fact, that is the way crime prevention is presently supposed to work. Police will, of course, do all they can to protect but unless they see a well defined case of the law being broken they have no Federal duty to protect, that luxury only applies to people in their custody. Crimes are only crimes after they have been committed.

___________________________________________________________________________________

Federal Court Affirms Yet Again Police Have No Duty to Protect You, [/b

12/20/2018Ryan McMaken

Following last February's shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, some students claimed local government officials were at fault for failing to provide protection to students. The students filed suit, naming six defendants, including the Broward school district and the Broward Sheriff’s Office , as well as school deputy Scot Peterson and campus monitor Andrew Medina.

On Monday, though, a federal judge ruled that the government agencies " had no constitutional duty to protect students who were not in custody."

This latest decision adds to a growing body of case law establishing that government agencies — including police agencies — have no duty to provide protection to citizens in general:

“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed out.

Moreover, even though the state of Florida has compulsory schooling laws, the students themselves are not "in custody":

“Courts have rejected the argument that students are in custody of school officials while they are on campus,” Mr. Hutchinson said. “Custody is narrowly confined to situations where a person loses his or her freedom to move freely and seek assistance on their own — such as prisons, jails, or mental institutions.”

Hutchinson is right.

The US Supreme Court has made it clear that law enforcement agencies are not required to provide protection to the citizens who are forced to pay the police for their "services."

In the cases DeShaney vs. Winnebago and Town of Castle Rock vs. Gonzales, the supreme court has ruled that police agencies are not obligated to provide protection of citizens. In other words, police are well within their rights to pick and choose when to intervene to protect the lives and property of others — even when a threat is apparent.

In both of these court cases, clear and repeated threats were made against the safety of children — but government agencies chose to take no action.
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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#183 Post by boing » Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:53 pm

So, as reported by Politico, Joe Biden gave a speech today concerning, of course, gun control.

I was amused to see some of his key recommendations. As reported by Politico "He called for bans on assault-type weapons and high-capacity magazines, announced his support for red flag laws and stronger background checks, insisted that the legal age for purchasing assault-type weapons jump from 18 to 21, and more.". Nice to see he agrees with me on three out of four items. If only we could get the anti-gunners to accept a rifle ban in urban areas rather than a complete ban I could, depending on what is contained in the "more", agree with him as would many reasonable people.

I personally would not see a ban on rifles of all types in urban areas as being a problem. The compromise allows strongly pro-gun people to have rifles, keep them in their homes and have them available for home or self defense. It helps to keep cities and schools safer. The Constitution is protected. There are not many rifle owners who would argue that a rifle down town is an absolute necessity. A ban on rifles in urban areas would also make enforcement simpler since a rifle is more difficult to hide than a handgun.

The only problem is how to cover people who live in the urban areas and own rifles for transporting their rifles outside of the area to shoot.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#184 Post by PHXPhlyer » Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:47 pm

The only problem is how to cover people who live in the urban areas and own rifles for transporting their rifles outside of the area to shoot.

I think NYC and maybe DC have laws covering transport because of their (overly)strict gun laws.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#185 Post by llondel » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:30 am

To make a change from the daily mass murder with guns, how about a stabbing?
LOS ANGELES — A man entered a hospital in Encino on Friday and stabbed three medical professionals, officials said.

The man was armed with a knife when he entered Encino Hospital Medical Center around 3:50 p.m., Los Angeles police spokesman Drake Madison said.

A doctor and two staff nurses were stabbed and transported to a trauma center, a representative for the hospital said.

They suffered what were described as critical injuries, but officials stressed the information was preliminary.

The assailant is believed to be contained to a room at the hospital, the LAPD said.

Madison described the man as being barricaded. He said that SWAT was sent to the hospital.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/me ... -rcna31949

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#186 Post by Dushan » Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:33 am

You see, it’s not the gun, it’s the perp.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#187 Post by John Hill » Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:52 am

I just love what-about-ary.
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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#188 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:50 pm

Not mentioned here yet...
Three people have been killed and 11 others injured in a mass shooting in Philadelphia late on Saturday after a gunman opened fire into a large crowd.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 94280.html
On Saturday, four people were killed and at least 28 were injured in a series of mass shootings that played out across the country, which included incidents in Pennsylvania, Texas, Arizona and Michigan.
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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#189 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:01 pm

I'll call your Philadelphia with a Chattanooga.
Three killed, 14 injured in Chattanooga, Tennessee, shooting that left several victims hit by fleeing cars


https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/05/us/chatt ... index.html

The Chattanooga Police Department investigates the scene following a shooting on Sunday, June 5, 2022, in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Three people were killed and at least 14 others were injured after gunshots rang out in Chattanooga, Tennessee, early Sunday, with some victims struck by bullets and others by fleeing vehicles, according to local police.

Police responded to reports of a shooting at a nightclub just before 2:45 a.m. local time, Jeremy Eames, a spokesperson for the Chattanooga Police Department, told CNN. Officers found multiple victims when they arrived and began rendering medical aid.

In all, 14 victims were shot while three others were hit by vehicles attempting to flee the scene, Eames said. Among the three deaths, two stemmed from gunshot wounds and one stemmed from injuries sustained after the victim was struck by a vehicle, he said.

Police believe multiple shooters were involved. No suspects are in custody.

A motive for the shooting is unclear, but authorities believe the shooting was an isolated incident “in which one or more of the victims were targeted.”

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#190 Post by boing » Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:37 pm

Nightclub, 0245, multiple shooters, targeted, looks like payback for last weeks shooting under similar circumstances. Police said not gang related, what else do you call it if two groups of people attack each other?

Edit to add.
Sunday, May 29, 2022

Two young victims from Saturday night's shooting in downtown Chattanooga are in "very, very critical condition," Police Chief Celeste Murphy said at a Sunday afternoon press conference.

Police said five of the victims were 15 and the other was 13 years old.

Two of the 15-year-olds who were shot were females.

She also said that police are studying video showing two groups approaching one another in the 100 block of Cherry Street.

The video shows two people from one of the groups begin firing shots into the other group.
What the heck were, at least, 5x15 year olds and a 13 year old doing in the nightclub area at 02.45 in the morning? Were they supervised? Why would young kids be targeted by the multiple shooters (at this time police seem to think the girl was the intended target)? This was obviously a revenge attack.

Immediate questions.
Where did young people get guns?
Why were barely teenagers out on the street at 0245??
Do their parents have any control or concern? I am sure they will appear on TV now crying saying "My baby, my baby".
What is the common factor between the two groups, school, residential area, race?
How much was alcohol or drugs involved?

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#191 Post by PHXPhlyer » Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:07 pm

boing wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:37 pm

Immediate questions.
Where did young people get guns? Not legally
Why were barely teenagers out on the street at 0245?? See next point
Do their parents have any control or concern? I am sure they will appear on TV now crying saying "My baby, my baby".
What is the common factor between the two groups, school, residential area, race? Probably, maybe , yes.
How much was alcohol or drugs involved? Yes
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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#192 Post by G-CPTN » Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:56 pm


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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#193 Post by Dushan » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:04 pm

Similar incidents in Greater Toronto Area (GTA) over this and last weekends, but nobody brings it up because it isn't about "big bad Americans". Gangs and drug dealers settling scores. Canada has very strict gun laws (and Skippy is trying to make them even stricter) yet carnage happens. Does anyone here think that by banning guns, or making them difficult to get, legally, this will stop?

Criminals don't care about laws. Murder is already outlawed, yet here we are.
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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#194 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:17 pm

As I have said here before:
If it were just criminals, drug dealers, gang bangers, etc. taking each other out, I would have no problem with that.
It is just the fact that innocents get caught up in the crossfire and/or stray bullets. [-X
Just read a news report this morning involving a woman who was struck by a rifle bullet in her own bed who now faces six months to a year of rehab.
Unfortunately, the bad guys are being created faster than their enemies and the cops can take them out. Approximately 6/7 taken out this weekend here and officer-involved-shootings averaging more than one per week this year so far. (-|

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#195 Post by Boac » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:14 pm

Yes, but it IS what the USA wants, isn't it? The 'right' to own a gun even if you want to kill someone with it.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#196 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:49 pm

Firm proposes Taser-armed drones to stop school shootings :-?

https://apnews.com/article/technology-p ... c189106f65

Taser developer Axon said this week it is working to build drones armed with the electric stunning weapons that could fly in schools and “help prevent the next Uvalde, Sandy Hook, or Columbine.” But its own technology advisers quickly panned the idea as a dangerous fantasy.

The publicly traded company, which sells Tasers and police body cameras, floated the idea of a new police drone product last year to its artificial intelligence ethics board, a group of well-respected experts in technology, policing and privacy.

Some of them expressed reservations about weaponizing drones in over-policed communities of color. But they were not expecting Axon’s Thursday announcement that it wants to send those Taser-equipped drones into classrooms to prevent mass shootings by immobilizing an intruding gunman.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Axon founder and CEO Rick Smith said he felt compelled to make the idea public after the mass shooting at an Uvalde, Texas elementary school, saying he was “catastrophically disappointed” in the response by police who didn’t move in to kill the suspect for more than an hour.

But he stressed Friday that no product had been launched and any potential launch would be down the road. The idea, he felt, needed to be shared now because of the public conversation about effective ways for police to safely confront attackers and how schools can increase safety.

“This is an idea that should get into the public’s consciousness while our minds are open to it and I felt if I wait another six months, the world is going to change and people are going to forget this pain and we’re going to see a shift in sentiments where people are going to focus a lot more on what could go wrong, rather than the pain of this problem we need to solve,” he said.

Axon’s stock price rose with the news. But the announcement angered members of the ethics board, some of whom are now likely to quit in protest.

“This particular idea is crackpot,” said Barry Friedman, a New York University law professor who sits on the Axon AI Ethics Board. “Drones can’t fly through closed doors. The physical properties of the universe still hold. So unless you have a drone in every single classroom in America, which seems insane, the idea just isn’t going to work.”

Friedman said it was a “dangerous and fantastical idea” that went far beyond the proposal for a Taser-equipped police drone that board members — some of them former or current police officials — had been debating in recent months.

“We begged the company not to do it,” Friedman said of the company’s announcement. “It was unnecessary and shameful.”

Board members who spoke with The Associated Press said they were taken aback by the school drone proposal — which they got notice of only earlier this week — and cobbled together a unanimous statement of concern that described Axon’s decision as “deeply regrettable.” The company tweeted out the board’s dissent shortly after its own statement Thursday announcement.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if there were resignations,” said another ethics board member, Ryan Calo, a law professor at the University of Washington. “I think everyone on the board has to make a choice about whether they want to stay involved.”

Friedman and Calo both described this week’s process as a sharp turnaround from the respectful relationship that Axon executives have had with the board in recent years on controversial topics such as face recognition — which Axon decided against using in its body cameras — and automated license plate readers.

“Sometimes the company takes our advice and sometimes it doesn’t,” Friedman said. “What’s important is that happens after thoughtful discussion and coordination. That was thrown out the window here.”

Smith said the company is still in the very early phases of product development and would continue to consult the ethics board, along with law enforcement officials, community leaders and school officials. He acknowledged that the company might later determine that the idea isn’t feasible and abandon it.

But he took issue with the idea that he had ignored the concerns from the ethics board, which is meant to provide guidance and share feedback. Ultimately, the decision still falls to Smith as the company’s chief executive.

“I have not ignored what they have said. People can have debates and disagree,” Smith said. “I think there is one thing the world can see: our board is not a whitewash.”

“I hope they don’t resign,” he added. “I hope that they are somewhat proud maybe after this that we’re having this public debate.”

On Friday in an “Ask Me Anything” chat on the online forum Reddit. Smith acknowledged that “drones in schools can sound nuts” but went on to answer detailed questions about them. They could travel through school vents, he said, and perch on doors and walls near ceilings. It could be a “good thing” if a gunman tried to shoot one down because it would distract from trying to kill people.

“We’re doing this because we care,” Smith said. “We’re a business so ultimately we have to find a financial model that works, but at the end of the day we’ve been successful because our mission drives our business and we solve problems we care about,” he added.

Smith told a Reddit user that Axon was “absolutely not” trying to capitalize on recent tragedies to attract investors. He noted the advisory board’s disagreements but said the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas — and what he described as misguided proposals to arm teachers with guns — compelled him to go public with the drone idea to field a “far broader array of voices.”

Axon halts plans for Taser drone as 9 on ethics board resign :-o
Axon’s founder and CEO Rick Smith said the company’s announcement last week was intended to “initiate a conversation on this as a potential solution.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/a ... -rcna32124

Axon, the company best known for developing the Taser, said Monday it was halting plans to develop a Taser-equipped drone after a majority of its ethics board resigned over the controversial project.

Axon’s founder and CEO Rick Smith said the company’s announcement last week — which drew a rebuke from its artificial intelligence ethics board — was intended to “initiate a conversation on this as a potential solution.” Smith said the ensuing discussion “provided us with a deeper appreciation of the complex and important considerations” around the issue.

As a result, “we are pausing work on this project and refocusing to further engage with key constituencies to fully explore the best path forward,” he said. The development was first reported by Reuters.

The board had voted 8-4 a few weeks ago to recommend Axon not proceed with a pilot of the Taser drone and had concerns about introducing weaponizing drones in over-policed communities of color.

But after the mass shooting at an Uvalde, Texas elementary school, the company announced it was beginning development of the drone. Smith told The Associated Press last week he made the idea public in part because he was “catastrophically disappointed” in the response by police who didn’t move in to kill the suspect for more than an hour.

The board issued a rare public rebuke of the project, saying it was a dangerous idea that went far beyond the initial proposal the board had reviewed for a Taser-equipped police drone. It said it had “pleaded with the company to pull back” before the announcement and that many of them believed it was “trading on the tragedy of the Uvalde and Buffalo shootings.”

Smith had rejected that idea in an interview with the AP last week and said he was pressing ahead because he believed the Taser drone could be a viable solution to save lives. He contended the idea needed to be shared as part of the public conversation about school safety and effective ways for police to safely confront attackers.

On Monday, nine members of the ethics board, a group of well-respected experts in technology, policing and privacy, announced resignations, saying they had “lost faith in Axon’s ability to be a responsible partner.”

“We wish it had not come to this,” the statement said. “Each of us joined this Board in the belief that we could influence the direction of the company in ways that would help to mitigate the harms that policing technology can sow and better capture any benefits.”

“We tried from the start to get Axon to understand that its customer has to be the community that a policing agency serves, not the policing agency itself,” one of the board’s members, Barry Friedman, a New York University law professor, said in an interview. “It has been a painful struggle to try to change the calculus there.”

Friedman said a major concern was Smith’s decision to move forward with the plan and announce it publicly without adequately hearing the concerns of the board members.

“What’s the emergency? School shootings are a crisis. I agree,” Friedman said. “But Axon, on its own best timeline, isn’t going to come up with anything for a couple of years. Why was it necessary to jump ahead like this?”

“What Rick is suggesting is a necessary public dialogue was really just jumping over the head of the board,” Friedman said.

In his statement, Smith said it was “unfortunate that some members of Axon’s ethics advisory panel have chosen to withdraw from directly engaging on these issues before we heard or had a chance to address their technical questions.”

“We respect their choice and will continue to seek diverse perspectives to challenge our thinking and help guide other technology options,” Smith said.

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#197 Post by OFSO » Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:01 pm

A slight drift - you can find The Islington Gazette on line, and currently they have a portrait gallery of miscreants from the London Borough (UK) caught recently, their crimes and their sentences. It's worth a look - see if you can spot a common feature.

Here it is:

https://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news ... 22-9008462

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#198 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:09 pm

OFSO wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:01 pm
The Islington Gazette on line, and currently they have a portrait gallery of miscreants from the London Borough (UK) caught recently, their crimes and their sentences. It's worth a look - see if you can spot a common feature.
QED?

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#199 Post by OFSO » Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:19 pm

The only white man in the pictures is a White Supremacist. Now what, I wonder, would make someone believe in such a racist philosophy, if you were living in Islington?

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Re: Just another school shooting, yawn.

#200 Post by llondel » Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:30 pm

Dushan wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:33 am
You see, it’s not the gun, it’s the perp.
But a perp with a knife kills people at a slower rate than one with an AR-15 and there's more chance to stop him because he's got to get close to people.

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