Roe vs Wade?

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llondel
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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#21 Post by llondel » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:01 pm

G~Man wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:37 pm
Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:14 am
No method of contraception, except abstinence, is 100%.
Having said that, it didn't work for Mary now did it..... B-) B-)
I saw that as a meme, how use of abstinence as a method of avoiding pregnancy is being pushed by those following a religion where a woman got pregnant despite not having sex.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#22 Post by llondel » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:04 pm

boing wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:40 am
In the end I suppose abortion is an individual choice but this does not infer that it should be available on demand in every State. The voters and residents of a State should still control how it handles certain controversial issues. Handing the complete decision to the medical profession is probably not wise since there are moral and financial issues involved.
Therein lies the next big argument. Having removed individual choice in favour of individual states, how long before there's an attempt to impose a ban even on states where it's legal, and to make life (even more) difficult for women to travel to those states?

The Catholic church won't baptise a stillborn infant because for that purpose, life begins with the first breath.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#23 Post by boing » Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:01 pm

Llondel has correctly surmised that the return of abortion legislation to the States, where it should have been originally based on the Constitution, is only a first step to further adjustments. We will now see steps in some States to toughen laws and in other States to avoid them. There are already Federal laws controlling such processes as inter-State commerce, could we see a State advertising and facilitating abortion under these Federal laws? There will be a whole maelstrom of events before this settles which could lead to fundamental changes in inter-State relationships. It does not take much thought to see how complicated this situation, in itself relatively minor but in overall principal very significant, could become. For example, free movement between States is an accepted right, could we see an attempt to control movement depending on the purpose? In the past some areas made the sale of alcohol illegal but there was always a community not to far away were alcohol could be purchased and taken home.

The simple solution is reasonable legislation by each State with a rational, if unofficial, acceptance that people will do what they need to do. The fundamental consideration is that abortion, if considered justified, needs to be available and medically safe otherwise the process becomes murder of the mother or child or both. It sort of reminds me of the conventions of Victorian England where daughters of the polite were sent overseas for a time to "fortify their constitution" or "study a language".

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#24 Post by llondel » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:56 pm

boing wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:01 pm
The simple solution is reasonable legislation by each State with a rational, if unofficial, acceptance that people will do what they need to do.
I would observe that "rational" and "reasonable" don't seem to apply to US politics at the moment.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#25 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:03 pm

I note Biden is less popular at this point in a Presidency than any previous President, including Jimmy Carter.
Certainly Canadian politicians, federal or provincial, seem incapable of either rationality or reasonableness. You would not believe the mindless rubbish I've just had from my provincial rep as to why I've been waiting 11 years and counting for a doctor.

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Re: No doctors on PEI...

#26 Post by Rossian » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:52 pm

......surely not Fox? Or am I misunderstanding your problem completely?

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#27 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:57 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-e ... -1.6490342

and he isn't the only one, as you now know.

I should add that I was aware of the problem before I came here, and was pretty certain the government was incapable of solving it (it's a combination of administrative job-protection, stupidity, and arrogance), so I am not claiming to be an abused innocent here.

And the problem is worse than when I got here.

I keep myself healthy.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#28 Post by boing » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:05 pm

Lector.
So, vat ve do iss make ze abortion cheap and simple, zen we make ze cost of liffing so high zat any voman getting pregnant vill call for ze abortion. Zis vill limit ze animal population. Zen ve pay the nezzessary more intelligent part of ze population just enuff to keep zem happy and vorking for us.

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A perfectly marvellous suggestion Klaus. I will call Alexandria immediately.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#29 Post by llondel » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:10 am

One side effect of the change in some states is that rapists get to choose the mother of their children now.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#30 Post by reddo » Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pm

"On the other hand I can't sympathise with a woman who gets drunk and can't keep her legs closed who expects the easy way out when she literally screws up."
One could argue that if a man didn't want to have children then he should also prevent fertilisation from taking place.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#31 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:34 pm

reddo wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pm
"On the other hand I can't sympathise with a woman who gets drunk and can't keep her legs closed who expects the easy way out when she literally screws up."
One could argue that if a man didn't want to have children then he should also prevent fertilisation from taking place.
+10 :YMAPPLAUSE: :-bd
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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#32 Post by boing » Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:09 pm

As one who accepted vasectomy after our second child I can say that I understand the male responsibility part of this equation. However, we have to accept that the woman is the individual that actually has to bear the child and consider the consequences, so, as unfair as this may be, it is a practical matter that the female needs to proceed with greater caution.

I really do not, or even want to, understand the mating game as it is played today but as with other aspects of life I would bet it is far more complicated than I ever experienced, it is certainly more open and "in your face". Any passage through social media clearly demonstrates youth's fixation with sexuality so it is no surprise that abortion is in greater demand.
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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#33 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:06 am

I'm with Boing on both the male responsibility and the practicalities.

I will chip in one bit of personal knowledge. My sister attended school in the town in the UK that had the highest level of youth pregnancies in the UK at the time. Three girls (including her) from her class went on from GCSEs to A level, and every single other girl got pregnant. And all the pregnant ones got a council flat, as was policy at the time.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#34 Post by reddo » Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:48 pm

Good on you for getting a vasectomy.

Practical? I would suggest that wearing a condom is the most practical way to stop sperm from entering the woman's body. Is it 100% effective? No. Nothing but abstinence is but that's not realistic. So I would suggest that if a man was held to the full extent of the law that a woman will be for seeking to terminate a pregnancy then the whole unwanted pregnancy problem would diminish.

In countries where there is a healthy and mature attitude to sexual practices and education, especially in schools, abortion is quite low. In countries where are taboos and hang ups about child sex education and limited access to free or cheap contraception, abortion is high.
Fixation on sexuality is not new. It's been prominent since the late 60s. Whether it be magazines, billboards, tv. It's not new.

This dialogue of "well, tough luck girly, you're the one with the womb, I'm off scot-free" has to stop. It just does. It's scarily similar to the dialogue of "well, of course she was raped, she was wearing a low cut dress".

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#35 Post by boing » Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:02 pm

Slow down please Reddo, no one is trying to lay the whole problem on women but, if the intent is to limit the number of abortions to justified cases only, women must be on the front line of the decision making process and they must accept 50% responsibility.

The US CDC has volumes of data on abortions. The statistics are somewhat skewed because certain locations do not report their numbers notably California, Illinois and the Washington DC and New York areas. I wonder why????

Here is a summary report.TABLE 7. I have removed the by State data but the full table is available on the CDC website. Unfortunately some spacing errors were introduced during copying.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Number of reported abortions, by known marital status and reporting area of occurrence — selected reporting areas,* United States, 2019

State/Area Marital status Total abortions reported by known marital status
Married Unmarried
No. (%)† No. (%) No. (% of all reported abortions)§
Tot 74,578 (14.5) 438,256 (85.5) 512,834 (94.5)§§
Abortion ratio¶¶ 46 394 NA

Abbreviation: NA = not applicable.
* Data from 42 reporting areas; excludes 10 reporting areas (California, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York State, Washington, and Wyoming) that did not report, did not report by marital status, or did not meet reporting standards.
† Percentages for the individual component categories might not add to 100% because of rounding.
§ Percentage is calculated as the number of abortions reported by known marital status divided by the sum of abortions reported by known and unknown marital status. Values ≥99.95% are rounded to 100.0%.
¶ Includes residents only.
** Reporting to the central health agency is not required. Data are requested from hospitals and licensed ambulatory care facilities only.
†† Recorded as patient married or not married to father.
§§ Percentage based on a total of 542,479 abortions reported among the areas that met reporting standards for marital status; reporting standards for marital status were applied to abortions for residents of Illinois only.
¶¶ Number of abortions obtained by marital status per 1,000 live births to women of the same marital status. For the total abortion ratio only, abortions for women of unknown marital status were distributed according to the distribution of abortions among women of known marital status.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is only one of many charts. The thing I find interesting about this chart is that it clearly shows that abortion is chosen by unmarried mothers to married mothers in a percentage ratio of 85.5% to 14.5 % (approx. 6:1). I think the chart clearly shows that abortion is not primarily performed for health and safety reasons, it has become a form of birth control. If abortion was used primarily for health and safety reasons we would see the percentages for married and unmarried women to be about the same, in fact we could expect the number of health problems to be lower in an unmarried (presumably lower aged) group, this is clearly not the case. Regardless of who we believe should be primarily responsible for birth control the plan is clearly not working. Tell me, should an unborn baby be responsible, given a death penalty, because the "parents" could not have a sensible relationship?

I am usually a pragmatic individual but my pragmatism does not stretch to the killing of innocent victims for convenience. On balance, as far as a very risky moral balance is concerned, I would think castration of the fathers more fair than killing of the unborn child. How about adding mandatory castration of the father as a requirement for abortion, I suspect the number of abortions would fall dramatically?

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#36 Post by reddo » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:02 pm

If they are a father, it's too late if the whole goal is to prevent pregnancies. And your comment about laying the blame at women? Come on. That's the whole issue about what's going on in the US. Women now have to face prosecution for seeking a termination. That is unbelievable. Irish women had to travel to the UK to get access to safe abortions. Contraception isn't perfect. If a woman has used the contraceptive pill but got a gastro issue which prevented it from working, should she then be forced to have a baby she didn't want?

Whilst some women may use abortion as routine contraception, they are a real minority.
As you've stated, women have to deal with the consequence of sex. Believe me, we know that. We really do. If we have a baby, our career options, pension, retirement options are all irrevocably altered. Our society just does not treat women fairly if they take time out to raise a child.
You may not like abortion as an option. Fair enough, I can understand and respect that. Guess what, most women don't like it either. But to have the option of safe abortion removed is horrifying.

Yes, I am very angry about what's happening in the US. It's terrifying to me the continued attack on women's rights. Yes I am emotional. I have gone through the emotional terror of a late period. The "what the feck am I going to do" is honestly terrifying. Because, my life's course would have changed beyond measure.

No one wants to use insurance, but it's nice to know it's there. No one wants to have to get an abortion, but safe abortion options should be there.

This act in the US will not get rid of abortions, just as Prohibition did not stop alcohol consumption. All it did was drive it underground.
Stopping safe abortions will just push them underground for those who don't have access the funds to go to private clinics.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#37 Post by llondel » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:34 pm

reddo wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:48 pm
Practical? I would suggest that wearing a condom is the most practical way to stop sperm from entering the woman's body. Is it 100% effective? No. Nothing but abstinence is but that's not realistic.
There's a whole religion built on abstinence not being effective.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#38 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:43 pm


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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#39 Post by boing » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:45 pm

Reddo,
But to have the option of safe abortion removed is horrifying.
First you are factually wrong. Abortions have not been banned in the US, all that has happened is that abortion is now covered by State law instead of Federal executive decree. If the voters in a State are pro or con is all that matters. If a State votes pro there is nothing the Federal government, or the minority voters in the State, can do about it regardless of their preferences.

It is clear from the statistics I provided that generally responsible married women are not the problem we have to deal with. The problem is the six times greater number of UN-married women having abortions. If you dig into the numbers you will see this volumetric division also occurs by age although not to as great an extent.

Let's look at the numbers again.
Let's say that both the unmarried women and the married women in the group were using the same contraceptive routine. Are you asking me to believe that for some strange medical reason unmarried women are experiencing six times the contraceptive failure rate as married women? That is not credible. The likely answer is that six times the number of women are using risky behaviour and the whole population are paying for this with their taxes and medical insurance rates.

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Re: Roe vs Wade?

#40 Post by John Hill » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:37 am

Is abortion acceptable in the case of deformed and/or otherwise defective fetuses?
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