Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

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Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#1 Post by John Hill » Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:59 am

https://apnews.com/article/indiana-mall ... b2422c2fde

Apparently an armed citizen shot and killed the perpetrator!

I guess we will be hearing more about this incident.
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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#2 Post by G-CPTN » Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:35 am

That's all very commendable, but what if the armed citizen shot the wrong person?

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#3 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:30 pm

Apparently he shot the right one, the one blazing away with a rifle. :YMAPPLAUSE:
My biggest fear would be being mistaken for the original shooter and being taken out by either law enforcement or another well meaning armed individual. [-X
The "Good Samaritan" shooter my be in a bit of trouble as most shopping malls are posted as no firearms allowed areas, even for those with a concealed carry permit. :-?

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#4 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:34 pm

I read up about this about 5 years ago, G-CPTN. I couldn't find a single incident where the citizen shooter had either shot the wrong person, or indeed wounded any bystander. There were, however, quite a few where the police had killed bystanders, although obviously from a much larger number of cases.
I also didn't find a case where the police had shot a citizen shooter, though there was one where the police shot someone who had hit a murderer with his vehicle.
There was a case about 5 years back where an off-duty cop was illegally carrying a concealed weapon in a shopping mall that had banned them. A knife-carrying nutter attempted murder, and was promptly taken out by the cop before anyone was killed. That was Minnesota, I think.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#5 Post by PHXPhlyer » Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:00 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 4:34 pm
I
I also didn't find a case where the police had shot a citizen shooter, though there was one where the police shot someone who had hit a murderer with his vehicle.
I think that there was an instance of "Friendly Fire" on a citizen shooter by law enforcement not very long ago but I don't remember where, when, or the exact circumstances.
I will have a look around.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#6 Post by Dushan » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:20 pm

John Hill wrote:
Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:59 am
https://apnews.com/article/indiana-mall ... b2422c2fde

Apparently an armed citizen shot and killed the perpetrator!

I guess we will be hearing more about this incident.
Actually, you won’t, at least not from legacy media, as it does not fit the narrative.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#7 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Jul 19, 2022 6:40 pm

What we know about the armed bystander who killed the shooter at an Indiana mall

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/eli-d ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/india ... index.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/in ... -rcna38755

[b All of articles linked have been edited from what I originally read to remove references to the fact that the mall was posted as "No Firearms Allowed".
If the "Good Samaritan" had been caught with his gun any other time he would have been escorted off the property, at the very least, or law enforcement could be called and he could be prosecuted.[/b]

Dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, Elisjsha Dicken was shopping with his girlfriend when a gunman opened fire on a food court at a Greenwood, Indiana, mall Sunday evening, killing three people and wounding two others.

While the shooter, 20-year-old Douglas Sapirman, fired 24 rounds from an AR-15-style rifle, Dicken did not hesitate to use the Glock handgun he was legally carrying. Sapirman was “neutralized” within two minutes, police said.

“Many more people would have died last night if not for a responsible armed citizen that took action very quickly within the first two minutes of the shooting,” Greenwood Police Chief James Ison said at a news conference Monday.

The grandmother of Shay Goldman, Dicken’s 19-year-old girlfriend, says her granddaughter’s life was one of those spared through the young man’s actions, CNN affiliate WTHR reported.

“‘Eli pushed me out of the way and told me to get down and stay down,’” Goldman told her grandmother by phone, according to WTHR.

“Everybody should be proud of him for what he’s done because if not, there would have been a lot more,” said the grandmother, who the affiliate did not identify.

Police identify victims, gunman and armed bystander in Indiana mall shooting
As Sapirman began shooting from a restroom area into the mall’s food court, Dicken returned fire “from quite a distance with a handgun – was very proficient in that, very tactically sound,” Ison said. As he moved in on the gunman, Dicken motioned for people to leave behind him, the chief said.

“He’s a superhero,” Alison Dick said in a live Facebook post, whose 12-year-old daughter was wounded.

As far as investigators know, Dicken “has no police training and no military training,” Ison said. According to WTHR, Dicken’s grandfather taught him how to shoot.

Making Dicken’s heroism perhaps even more remarkable is the fact cases of an armed bystander attacking an active shooter are rare, according to data from the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training at Texas State University.

There were at least 434 active shooter attacks in the US from 2000 to 2021, according to ALERRT data. Active shooter attacks were defined as those in which one or more shooters killed or attempted to kill multiple unrelated people in a populated place.

Of those 434 active shooter cases, an armed bystander shot the attacker in 22 of the incidents. In 10 of those, the “good guy” was a security guard or an off-duty police officer, ALERRT data showed.

Having armed people at the scene who are not law enforcement members can create confusion and carry dire risks, according to a data analysis published by The New York Times. An armed bystander who shot and killed an attacker in 2021 in Arvada, Colorado, for example, was himself shot and killed by the police who mistook him for the gunman, the Times reported.

Few other details have emerged about Dicken, and an attorney for the young man has asked the public to respect the privacy of Dicken and his family.

“Because we want to respect the ongoing criminal investigation by the Greenwood Police Department and take time to honor the three innocent lives lost, we won’t be making any substantive comments on Sunday’s events until after the authorities’ investigation is closed,” attorney Guy A. Relford said in a statement to CNN.

After the shooting, Dicken “approached mall security and told them that he was the one that neutralized the shooter,” and he waited for police to arrive, Ison said.

Police then took Dicken to the station, where detectives interviewed him. His statements correlated with video from the scene, the chief said.

“He’s a young man processing a lot,” Greenwood Mayor Mark Myers said. “I ask that you give him space and time to be able to process what he’s gone through.”

“This young man, Greenwood’s good Samaritan, acted within seconds, stopping the shooter and saving countless lives,” Myers said. “Our city, our community and our state is grateful for his heroism in this situation.”

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#8 Post by boing » Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:25 pm

In the US law enforcement officers are generally expected to carry a firearm when off duty in civilian clothes so they are in the same danger from friendly fire as regular people if intervening in a shooting. In the movies etc. the police officer will expose or hold up a badge and shout "Police, police" to inform other police officers of his identity - how well this would work in a chaotic environment with people screaming and shots being fired who knows.

Perhaps the most rational, if not the most palatable, advice is to consider that your gun is to protect yourself and those in the immediate area and not to try to be Rambo. For example, get as many people as you can into a store with a single entrance way then guard the door. Not very heroic but it saves a lot of people and avoids good guys shooting each other.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#9 Post by John Hill » Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:21 pm

You will not be safe until everyone carries a gun.
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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#10 Post by boing » Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:37 pm

Here you go John, not exactly an even match. How would you have stopped this guy, you could try "pretty please don't do that" or would you have stood between them with bare hands? The video is censored for the rest of the attack where he gets the woman down in the corner and continually punches the hell out of her with lefts and rights. As the report states, she was punched 125 times. There is barely a modern American man with the guts and strength to stand up to this fellow with bare hands but one wimp with a gun could have settled things early.



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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#11 Post by John Hill » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:49 am

Like I said, not safe until everyone carries a gun.
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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#12 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:44 am

No.1 what was this guy doing shopping with his girlfriend carrying a pistol? No.2 What is the legality of this? Although no doubt it was the right thing to do but he is not a police officer.
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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#13 Post by Dushan » Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:17 pm

He had a permit and was legally (as far as the law is concerned) carrying.
As far as the rules of the mall are concerned he was not allowed to bring it inside since they had a "no gun zone" sign.

Typically these attacks happen in "no gun" zones as the perp knows nobody carries and is not going to meet with the business end of a Glock or Messers Smith & Wesson.

In this case I don't think that anyone is going to make a big fuss over bringing a gun to the mall.
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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#14 Post by boing » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:56 pm

Ex A
1. He was carrying to protect himself and his girlfriend which was clearly a wise precaution as events proved.
2. There are various State laws but it is quite possible to carry a concealed weapon in many states. By Federal law a person must have a (too) cursory background check to purchase a firearm but this is purely to allow the purchase of the firearm, other state restrictions may apply after purchase. One of the common restrictions is on concealed carrying of the firearm for which a deeper background check is normally required before this is permitted. The preparation for issue of a concealed weapons permit often requires approved schooling on legalities and safety and sometimes a practical shooting test. There have been very, very, few examples of criminal use of a firearm by people holding a concealed weapons permit.
Probably the most fundamental difference between states concerning concealed weapon permits is "must issue" and "justified". In "must issue" states anyone who can pass the permitting process must be issued the permit, very democratic. In "justified" states you must show a positive reason why a permit should be issued. In swamp states like California this results in permits being issued to those with connections such as actors and politicians but refusal of a permit to a normal retail business owner. If you think this is an exaggeration I can point you to one jurisdiction that actually officially deputised, on paper, various people to enable the issue of a concealed weapons permit


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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#15 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:00 pm

My state no longer requires a permit to carry concealed.
They still issue concealed carry permits. these require background check, fingerprinting, and an approved class.
When I first got my CC permit the class consisted of two 4 hour classroom sessions and two 4 hour sessions on the range. The class was taught by County Sheriff's deputies with token assistance from off-duty local cop. The class was very thorough, legalities, strategy, alternatives to lethal force, etc.
The range training was equally in depth, including decision making, drawing and firing, more strategy, and firing under stress.
The second time I went through training the law had changed and only required a four hour class, including qualifying by scoring 70% out of ten total rounds, five at 5 yards and five at 10.
The class was the bare minimum to meet the legal requirements and the make-up of the class was concerning. The written test was a joke with the instructor helping individual students with suggestions such as "If it is not A or C, what do you think the right answer would be?"
The shooting portion was equally scary. We were told to bring 50 rounds; I only fired 10 and scored 100%. Many had to use most of their ammo, as in, "You need 70%, let's try again...and again"
Many of these people had no business owning a BB gun much less a firearm.
Not a very confidence building experience.
Now, all bets are off. No checks, no training, and many with no clue.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#16 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:19 pm

I have told this story here before -
I used to pistol shoot at a club which included American servicemen from a nearby American early-warning listening base.
One day a guy turned-up with a (.45?) revolver and he leased-off five shots from a standing position in quick succession - completely missing the target.
He then crouched and braced his arms on the support and his final shot hit the middle of the target.
"I guess it was me - not the gun" he averred.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#17 Post by PHXPhlyer » Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:21 pm

To add to the above...
The benefits of having a concealed carry permit even though you can carry concealed here without one:
Bars are off limits but with a permit you can carry concealed as long as you don't consume alcohol.
Schools are supposed to be gun free zones (I think 1,000') but you can be in the zone with a permit.
No waiting to purchase a firearm. Present permit and fill out the paperwork.
Unwritten rule but mostly acknowledged, If you are somehow caught carrying concealed in a posted "No Firearms Allowed" area an police are called, showing them your permit and either acknowledging your mistake or perhaps saying that you didn't see the sign because a fat person was blocking it from sight is a "Get out of Jail" card.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#18 Post by PHXPhlyer » Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:33 am

Opinion: Good guy with a gun? Indiana and Uvalde tell us all we need to know

Presented without comment.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/opinions ... index.html

Finally, gun enthusiasts found themselves a good guy with a gun.

After more than 45,000 gun deaths in 2020 and more than 24,000 already this year, one legally armed bystander – a young man carrying a handgun in an Indiana mall – was able to use his weapon to kill a mass shooter. Conservatives are applauding this as a victory for their grand theory of public safety: A nation so awash in weapons that a “good guy with a gun” will be around to take out a bad guy with a gun. Or as the National Rifle Association put it: “The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

But on closer inspection, the math doesn’t quite work.

Even with a “good guy” present, the Indiana mall shooter was still able to kill three people, injure two and traumatize many others. That’s not a victory against gun violence; it’s a horrific scenario by any measure. And even the “good guy” with the gun wasn’t exactly following the rules – the mall doesn’t allow weapons on its property and he brought one in anyway.

The horrifying school shooting in Uvalde, Texas and the nightmarish failures of armed law enforcement agents to stop it should also put the “good guy with a gun” theory permanently to rest. As a shooter murdered children and teachers in their classrooms for 77 minutes, nearly 400 trained “good guys” with guns gathered outside and did… nothing. Trained law enforcement officers armed to the teeth – people paid by taxpayers to be “good guys with guns” – failed at taking out a mass shooter. We simply cannot rely on more guns to solve our gun violence epidemic.

Yes, it is good that a random armed man was able to take out a would-be mass shooter in Indiana, and yes it could have been much worse there: The shooter used an AR-15-style rifle, had other weapons at the ready and had more than 100 rounds of ammunition – and as is so often the case in mass shootings, he had purchased his fatal weapon legally.

That is the problem we should be focusing on – not the lack of other armed folks around to take out homicidal maniacs. If it wasn’t possible to easily buy weapons of mass death, we wouldn’t see nearly as much mass death. We know this because the US is unique among nations in our lax gun laws, and as a result, we are also unique among nations in our obscene rates of gun violence, from mass shootings to gun murders to gun suicides to accidental gun deaths.

Three people dead is not a win just because it could have been much worse. Three people joining the tens of thousands already killed this year by guns should be a mark of shame, not a rallying cry for more guns. The fact that this is the best story gun proponents have – “three people were killed but it would have been an even more horrific bloodbath if not for another armed citizen” – should demonstrate how wholly bankrupt their position truly is.

Compare this Indiana mall shooting to a recent shooting at a mall in Copenhagen. In the Copenhagen shooting, three people were also killed. But in Denmark, a nation that hadn’t seen a mass shooting since 2015, a mall shooting that killed three was a horrific and aberrant event. In America, it’s being touted by gun proponents as a victory for the armed. Even those of us who are sickened by these stories are so awash in them that we may become desensitized to all but the most extreme mass gun murders.

If “good guys with guns” were the solution to gun violence, then America would be the safest country on Earth. After all, we have more guns than people in the US – and yet more Americans have been killed by guns since 1968 have been killed in all of America’s wars combined.

The problem isn’t a lack of good guys. The problem is all the guns.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#19 Post by boing » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:38 am

The problem isn’t a lack of good guys. The problem is all the guns.
There are estimated to be 420 million guns in the US distributed in a population of 300 million. In my State one in 400 of the population has a concealed firearms permit.This means roughly that in a large store there is a good chance that one of the shoppers is carrying a concealed weapon at any hour of the day. I will provide the text of this report by "The Daily Wire" in full to save searching for it.
A newly-released report suggests that concealed carry permit holders are the most law-abiding citizens in the U.S.

The report, written by Crime Prevention Research Center president John Lott, notes that it is “very rare for permit holders to violate the law” and compares the crimes committed by permit holders to police officers and the general population. The police committed 103 crimes per 100,000 officers, while the general population committed 3,813 per 100,000 people, 37 times as much as the police crime rate.

And yet, the same metric shows an even lower crime rate for permit holders.

“Combining the data for Florida and Texas data, we find that permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers,” Lott writes. “Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10 That is just 1/7th of the rate for police officers. But there’s no need to focus on Texas and Florida — the data are similar in other states.”

The report found that while concealed carry-permits have surged since 1999, the murder rates have declined:


The ratios change each year but consistently, since 1980, there have been less firearm deaths by homicide than by suicide with firearms. In 2015 for example there were twice as many firearms deaths by suicide than by homicide. Perhaps the concerned people who worry so much about homicide should start by asking themselves if we should be doing more for metal health rather than letting our streets be populated by ever increasing numbers of the mentally ill and addicted homeless. They won't do this because this is a complex problem not easily solved, they would rather make the simplistic call to ban all guns than face a real crisis. Yet the response is made "banning all guns will result in less suicides as well as less homicides". No, if people feel suicidal they will find ways of killing themselves and some of these will possibly cause additional collateral deaths.

Now. if we look at the age of people dying by firearms, this is all categories, we see a very interesting pattern. Since 2019 death by firearms have increased in all age groups except --- those older than 65 years which have fallen in the same period. The number of guns in circulation has not increased notably since 2019 so why have deaths in all age groups, except the over 65, risen dramatically in this period. Could it be that there is, for some reason, a correlation between the Covid pandemic and firearms deaths?

Well, what about location. Undeniable most firearms deaths take place in Texas which will provide satisfaction for the banners but wait a second, Texas is closely followed by California in second place. Texas had 4,164 firearm deaths of all types and California had 3,449 in the same period. Considering the difference in strictness of the gun laws in the two states California's numbers are hardly support that strict gun laws are effective.

This is a complicated problem to solve and the answer will be gained by a clear headed analysis of what is really going on. Trite quotes as above seem very clever on the surface but they do not stand examination.

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Re: Another mass shooting, but the system is working!

#20 Post by llondel » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:44 am

boing wrote:
Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:38 am
Perhaps the concerned people who worry so much about homicide should start by asking themselves if we should be doing more for mental health rather than letting our streets be populated by ever increasing numbers of the mentally ill and addicted homeless.
That's probably the most important sentence. The problem in the US started getting worse in the 1980s when a lot of the mental health facilities were closed due to withdrawal of funding.

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