A grave mistake

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Fox3WheresMyBanana
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Re: A grave mistake

#81 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:23 pm

WSJ reporting that the Israelis have been asked to delay their ground assault as the US wishes to get more AD systems into the region to protect US troops, as they expect rockets to be coming their way.
Delay reportedly "a few days", looks like they are being airlifted, so maybe Sunday-Wed timeframe (assuming Friday and Saturday are out for the usual reason).

Qatar hoping to broker the release of up to 50 more hostages (about a quarter of those remaining).

Assorted US retired Generals reckon the ground assault will be worse than Fallujah.

Israel hit two Syrian army depots (mainly AD) near the border last night. Further strikes are keeping Aleppo and Damascus airports out of action.

UN aid convoys, only ever supplying 5% max of the assessed need, have been curtailed due to Israeli airstrikes today.

Erdogan has just stated he does not consider HAMAS to be terrorists, but "a liberation group".

Germany, UK, and the US continuing to support an Israeli ground assault.

Macron's back to his usual dreamy equivocation.
“Regarding a ground intervention, if is entirely targeted against terrorist groups, that is a choice that it has, but if it is a massive operation that would endanger civilian populations, in that case I think it would be an error for Israel,”
Macron told reporters in Egypt.

Not possible, you cowardly idiot!

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Re: A grave mistake

#82 Post by Dushan » Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:33 pm

Boac wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:07 pm
Could you clarify which 'savages' you are talking about? As far as I know Hamas have pretty well stopped barring a few rockets here and there.
There is only one group of savages in the Middle East and it is not the Israelis.
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: A grave mistake

#83 Post by OFSO » Thu Oct 26, 2023 8:14 pm

I think there are many groups of savages in the Middle East, but none of them are Israelis.

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Re: A grave mistake

#84 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:01 am

The US has hit two IRGC sites in eastern Syria

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/R ... kes-in-ea/
These narrowly tailored strikes in self-defense were intended solely to protect and defend U.S. personnel in Iraq and Syria. They are separate and distinct from the ongoing conflict between Israel and Hamas, and do not constitute a shift in our approach to the Israel-Hamas conflict. We continue to urge all state and non-state entities not to take action that would escalate into a broader regional conflict.
Fat chance!

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Re: A grave mistake

#85 Post by Boac » Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:01 pm

Including, of course, Israel, the US, UK, France............

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Re: A grave mistake

#86 Post by EA01 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:06 am

Well written article.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer stood against the Nazis until they murdered him in 1945. He told posterity: “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” Now is the time for those who can act to act, and for those who can speak to speak.

George Orwell, the most clear-sighted political and moral writer of the 20th century, also faced fascism, telling his readers in 1942: “Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you harmed the war effort of one side you automatically help out that of the other.”


That was true of the Second World War, and it is true of Israel today. Three weeks after the Hamas attack that precipitated the present crisis, the voices that predicably criticise Israel in whatever situation it finds itself have alighted on a word, “ceasefire”.

The reasons they give for an immediate ceasefire vary, but they are equally spurious. Some say it is so the hostages can be released, as though Israel is the reason 200 men, women are children are being kept in captivity in Gaza. Others say it is so fuel and other supplies can enter Gaza, although there seems to be plenty of fuel to fire rockets into Israel and Hamas appears to be forcibly removing whatever supplies it can lay its hands on, while diverting their use from humanitarian needs and towards its own purposes.

Whatever the pretexts being presented, we know what a ceasefire means in practice, which is Hamas can attack Israel, but Israel cannot respond. It is a call for pacifism, but in reality a one-sided pacifism, and we do not need Orwell to point out that is pro-fascist, pro-Hamas and, in truth, pro-violence.

That point was made with great force in the House of Lords in London last week by Lord Guglielmo Verdirame KC. Lord Verdirame is not only a leading silk, he is also professor of international law at Kings College London. And he made this powerful point: “Asking a state that is acting in self-defence to agree to a ceasefire before its lawful defensive objectives have been met is, in effect, asking that state to stop defending itself. For such calls to be reasonable and credible, they must be accompanied by a concrete proposal setting out how Israel’s legitimate defensive goals against Hamas will be met through other means.”


Mark Twain said: “You know your real friends when the chips are down.” That has become especially true over the past three weeks. The people who started criticising Israel within hours of the attack are the very same people still criticising Israel and calling for a ceasefire.

When opponents of Israel seize on the words of a released hostage, whose elderly husband is still in captivity, when it says Hamas treated her well, they are either delusional or disingenuous. By contrast, those people across the political spectrum, who know right from wrong and recognise an atrocity when they see one, have refused to condemn Israel; though they have maintained their position that Israel has the right to defend itself.

Let us not forget the atrocity is not over. For as long as there are still hostages in Gaza, Hamas is continuing to commit the most heinous war crimes against civilians. We should remember that when we hear calls for Israel to observe international law, because we do not hear the same demands made of Hamas.

That is for two reasons. First, because when those calls come from Israel’s opponents they do not arise from a good-faith interest in international law, but from the search for a stick to beat Israel with. Second, because everyone knows there’s no point asking Hamas to observe the laws of war, because Hamas has no interest in the laws governing armed conflict.

In their defence of Israel’s response, some have referred to the Allied bombing of Dresden during the Second World War but, with respect, I think that is the wrong analogy. Much more precise is the siege and capture of Berlin in 1945, but no one would argue that Berlin shouldn’t have been targeted and taken. Legitimate wars, lawfully prosecuted, almost always involve civilian casualties. We can and should regard them as tragedies.

That should shape our attitude towards the people suffering in Gaza. I do not know how many adults in Gaza are public or secret opponents of Hamas, but I do know there are a million children in Gaza. We have to be able to say at the same time that the suffering they are enduring is the responsibility of Hamas, and that is a heartbreaking tragedy we have to weep over. If there are ways to allow in more humanitarian aid that will go to the people who need it, they should be explored.

There are Jewish victims of Hamas and there are Palestinian victims of Hamas, and our compassion has to extend to them all. We can only hold on to the hope that when all this is over the people of Gaza, as well as the people of Israel, will stand a better chance of living safe and happy lives.

We continue to hope for an end to this conflict, but on the basis of peace and security for all, for the protection of all civilians, and for the release of all hostages. We will not be emotionally blackmailed by calls for a ceasefire, which is code for terrorism with impunity. No one with any human feeling delights in violence or in the suffering of civilians, but we have to hold on to what we know to be right and let that direct our actions.

That is what Orwell and Bonhoeffer understood 80 years ago, what Lord Verdirame has expressed so clearly and it is what all fair-minded people have to keep in their sights today and in the weeks to come.

Rabbi Benjamin Elton is chief minister of the Great Synagogue, Sydney.

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Re: A grave mistake

#87 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:47 am

I'm going to disagree with a lot of that.

Pacificism is not pro-anything but peace. Any attempt to make it pro- one side or the other is just an attempt to force the taking of sides.
Pacifists promote peace by word and by example. Pacifists are not forbidden from refusing to co-operate with either side, even if that means their death.
To think otherwise is to confuse pacifists with cowards. There are any number of examples of brave pacifists acting as medical staff during wartime.

Likewise, the UN call for a ceasefire is not pacifism, but cowardice.
Hamas are not a signatory to the Geneva Conventions.
Under the Conventions, which the UN is bound to uphold, Hamas are illegal combattants. Their use of the Gazan population as human shields is just one example.
Iran is a signatory. Supplying Hamas with any aid is therefore illegal, and the UN should be directing its efforts at Iran, not Israel.
All the UN should be doing with Israel is reminding them that any action against Hamas needs to be proportional to the effect in terms of civilian casualties and military advantage.
They could do this in practical terms, but they are cowards and don't want to be associated directly with any civilian deaths, so they pass pointless resolutions which Israel is bound to ignore.

Hamas are the elected government in Gaza. Therefore, any hospital with a military facility within or under it is not afforded the protection of a medical facility under the Geneva Conventions.
If the Gazan population don't want their hospitals bombed, they need to change their government.

Ben Elton should stick to writing Blackadder scripts ;)))

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Re: A grave mistake

#88 Post by tango15 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:07 pm

This business ('youths storming the airport looking for Jews') in Makhachkala (Dagestan) is strange. I have noticed a flight at least daily from Makhachkala to Tel Aviv, which struck me as odd from the beginning, since both it, and its neighbour Chechnya, are predominantly (and fiercely) Muslim. Most of the Jewish diaspora in Russia live in the big cities, and after the fall of the wall, tens of thousands of them left for Israel. Transaero was filling an all-economy 747 every day.
Maybe they are just carrying cargo. They're using a 737 from a local carrier, RedWings. I just can't imagine them filling a plane with Jewish people and dumping them in such a place.
Incidentally, Makhachkala is the last resting place of the rapidly deteriorating Ekranoplan, which technically, is classed as a ship, so no NATO reporting code.
ekranoplan-2.jpg

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Re: A grave mistake

#89 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:46 pm

It would fit with Russia stirring up trouble.
Chechnya, Kadyrov, etc.

I'm leaning towards Russia being behind the whole ME thing.
They may have been working through Iran to put Hamas up to this, especially supplying the money, and maybe much of the arms too.

Let's face it, they need a major diversion that sucks western aid from Ukraine.

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Re: A grave mistake

#90 Post by tango15 » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:50 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:46 pm
It would fit with Russia stirring up trouble.
Chechnya, Kadyrov, etc.

I'm leaning towards Russia being behind the whole ME thing.
They may have been working through Iran to put Hamas up to this, especially supplying the money, and maybe much of the arms too.

Let's face it, they need a major diversion that sucks western aid from Ukraine.
Yes, that theory works for me too. Maskirovska at its best. Especially when I read that Russia is blaming Ukraine for the Makhachkala incident. From Sky:

Russia claims Ukraine played 'direct role' in anti-Israel group storming airport
Russia's Foreign Ministry has claimed Ukraine played a "direct and key role" in the storming of a Russian airport by an anti-Israel mob.

Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said the incident in the southern republic of Dagestan was the result of a "provocation" orchestrated from outside of Russia.


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Re: A grave mistake

#91 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:51 pm

Significant Israeli armoured advances into northern Gaza.
The Salah Al-Din road has been cut south of Gaza City., together with another thrust down the coast road from the north.

Looks like they will attempt to isolate Gaza City, then work in.

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Re: A grave mistake

#92 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:57 pm

The problem with Russian media propaganda is that not only does no one believe a word of it, but what they do say does give away what they wish us to believe.
Furthermore, the rush to attribute detailed blame elsewhere rather gives away that it was a Russian put-up job.

As with the western media, their egos are getting in the way of their objectives.

For Maskirovka to work these days, the media needs NOT to be directly a part of it.
Unfortunately, the media are so cr@p at their jobs they will probably miss a lot of what they were supposed to say if they aren't directly told.
Zugzwang.

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Re: A grave mistake

#93 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:20 pm

The ground invasion has commenced.

Iran has escalated its "There will be harsh consequences if Gaza is invaded" to "There will be harsh consequences if the Gaza invasion is continued".
No doubt everyone is dreading the "There will be harsh consequences if Gaza is still being invaded after Christmas", which is expected on Christmas Eve.

Hizbollah have decided they will cause a little disturbance, but mayhem is out as they don't want their @sses kicked, like last time. Rocket stocks are better used for revolutionary kudos rather than being fired at Israel.

The UN is weeping and wailing, but clearly has lost any dentures it might once have owned.

The western muslims are happy to march, but have drawn the line at actually getting arrested, which western governments finally seem willing to do.
So much for the Intifada - they've all got taxis to drive and footie to watch.

The west is trying to get a few citizens out but it appears to be a token effort.
I suspect the optics don't look good for rescuing new citizens, who were given citizenship after "escaping the desperate hellhole of Gaza", but now appear to have been back there living for months.
It certainly renders the governments' given reasons for mass immigration quite ridiculous.

Netanyahu has stated it will be a long war.

Looks like HAMAS are on their own.

They may well all be prepared to die, but it will be hard to recruit their replacements if they do.

Israel is resisting any temptation to attack Iran now. But once HAMAS are buried, quite probably literally in their tunnels, I expect Iran will be on the end of something nasty.

putin will have to find another diversion. Watch this space.

Cy Nick Al-Bustard
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Re: A grave mistake

#94 Post by bob2s » Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:02 pm

This is well worth a look, a man speaking from the heart.

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Re: A grave mistake

#95 Post by Alisoncc » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:39 am

There has been talk about the total failure of Israeli intelligence re: HMAS attack. Have read recently a suggestion that Netanyahu did get notification of event, but chose to ignore it, for his own political reasons.

(edit) Will try and find the reference.
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Re: A grave mistake

#96 Post by Dushan » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:15 am

Alisoncc wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:39 am
There has been talk about the total failure of Israeli intelligence re: HMAS attack. Have read recently a suggestion that Netanyahu did get notification of event, but chose to ignore it, for his own political reasons.

(edit) Will try and find the reference.
I thought this from the get go. No way that Masad didn’t know about this. They needed a reason to go after Hamas and now they finally got a good one. Shukran Allah!
Because they stand on the wall and say "nothing's gonna hurt you tonight, not on my watch".

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Re: A grave mistake

#97 Post by Wodrick » Fri Nov 03, 2023 8:21 am

When Netanyahu was returned at the last election I said to SM there will be trouble now, nasty bastard.
Not wrong.

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Re: A grave mistake

#98 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:57 am

I agree,
but is that because he causes the trouble, allows trouble, or because the Israeli people think there will be trouble so elect a nasty bastard to give as good as they get?
Or something else, or All Of The Above?

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Re: A grave mistake

#99 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:22 pm

Sounds like Hizbollah has indeed bottled it.
An awful lot of words and naff all significant

Video has just been released from the latest Hizbollah Executive Meeting....


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Re: A grave mistake

#100 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sun Nov 05, 2023 6:04 pm

Top Tips !

Blinken, in response to Palestinian claims of Israeli atrocities, is reported as telling Abbas that he has asked Israel to use smaller bombs.

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