Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

Message
Author
User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 5766
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 63

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#201 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:26 pm

k3k3 wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:04 pm
Andy Hill was involved in an accident where eleven people died and is facing manslaughter charges.

Thirty years ago a 737 with an engine problem crashed after the pilots shut down the good engine, 47 people died. Nobody faced criminal charges.

Just saying.
I can see your point but with Kegworth there were many factors involved. Design faults, an engine failure, training, and a multi crew to name just a few. I have no positive idea what happened at Shoreham and am not prepared to guess. There are others on this forum far more qualified to comment. I think we all have a good idea but I hope they do not lock Andy up. There will be nothing to be achieved.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

k3k3
Snr FO
Snr FO
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:44 pm
Location: In the Transit Lounge

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#202 Post by k3k3 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:45 pm

It is just that nobody left their homes that morning intending to leave a swathe of death and destruction behind them, people made mistakes, possibly negligent, and I fear that future investigations may be hampered by people being less than candid as they fear prosecution.

User avatar
Capetonian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8874
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:44 am
Location: Enjoying the self-destruction of the EU.
Gender:
Age: 65

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#203 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:58 pm

Even if we accept that Andy Hill may have made a serious error of judgement and may even have acted unprofessionally, and even if there are no mitigating circumstances, and I'm not saying he did, just saying if ..... I don't see that locking him up serves any useful purpose. He will have suffered enough both mentally and physically.

I hope that this is taken in consideration.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 5766
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 63

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#204 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:22 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:58 pm
Even if we accept that Andy Hill may have made a serious error of judgement and may even have acted unprofessionally, and even if there are no mitigating circumstances, and I'm not saying he did, just saying if ..... I don't see that locking him up serves any useful purpose. He will have suffered enough both mentally and physically.

I hope that this is taken in consideration.
I think that this will be a key aspect of his defence lawyers. The families of the deceased are of course looking for so called 'justice'. At the end of the day Andy didn't want to smash himself up.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Pontius Navigator
Capt
Capt
Posts: 1573
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:17 am
Location: EGXC Lincolnshire
Gender:
Age: 75

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#205 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:44 pm

There is no discussion permitted in TOP as in UK the subject is now sub-judice. Not sure why though as the jury are not supposed to read about the case.

The local Brighton paper says his defence will relate to loss of consciousness due to G.

I do wonder how the jury will follow any technical evidence, but I suppose if they can follow fraud etc all will be made clear.

User avatar
Capetonian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8874
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:44 am
Location: Enjoying the self-destruction of the EU.
Gender:
Age: 65

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#206 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:59 pm

The local Brighton paper says his defence will relate to loss of consciousness due to G
I fail to understand how that is a defence. Unless he can prove a mechanical malfunction, he was the only person or factor determining the G force in the loop, and he should know his limits.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

Cacophonix
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8327
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:14 pm
Location: Wandering

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#207 Post by Cacophonix » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:58 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:44 pm
There is no discussion permitted in TOP as in UK the subject is now sub-judice. Not sure why though as the jury are not supposed to read about the case.

The local Brighton paper says his defence will relate to loss of consciousness due to G.

I do wonder how the jury will follow any technical evidence, but I suppose if they can follow fraud etc all will be made clear.
Just another power jag from one of the dingbats that think they run that site probably. Delusions of grandeur about TOP being something like a national newspaper or something!

Quite amusing when one looks at some of the charlatans and ciminals that have been given carte blanche there in the past.

I was told by a senior judge many years ago that he believed that many lay juries did not undersand the fraud trials they were expected to give a verdict on and I expect the same might pertain to aviation too.

Caco

G-CPTN
Capt
Capt
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#208 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:17 pm

How can any jury member not have a pre-conceived opinion of this event?

User avatar
Capetonian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8874
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:44 am
Location: Enjoying the self-destruction of the EU.
Gender:
Age: 65

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#209 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:45 pm

Because the law says they can't. But the law is an ass.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

User avatar
llondel
Capt
Capt
Posts: 508
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:17 am
Location: San Jose

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#210 Post by llondel » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:08 pm

I think you can have an opinion provided you are prepared to change that opinion when presented with the evidence. If no amount of evidence to the contrary will change your mind then you should not be on the jury.

On one trial for assault where I was on the jury, the prosecution put together a nice convincing story and I was prepared to believe it all. Then the defence version of events kicked in and I could see all the clever wording on the prosecution side. We found the defendant Not Guilty that day.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4657
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#211 Post by Boac » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am

Trial opens today.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 5766
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 63

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#212 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:32 pm

A jury of eight women and four men. Oh bloody hell. How do you explain an aerobatic display in terms of a knitting pattern. I guess just pull the wool over their eyes.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

User avatar
Capetonian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8874
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:44 am
Location: Enjoying the self-destruction of the EU.
Gender:
Age: 65

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#213 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:37 pm

That's very sexist of you, Mr Ex-A.
(Not saying I disagree with you though!)

This is a perfect example of why trial by jury in such a case is inappropriate, he needs to be assessed by competent specialists. I do not understand how he can be found 'guilty' of anything other than an error (or a series of errors) of judgement, and it may emerge that the condition of the aircraft was one of a number of contributory factors.

I accept that the jury are likely to be baying for blood because innocent bystanders were killed, but that doesn't mean that the pilot deserves to be found guilty of manslaughter.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

User avatar
Mrs Ex-Ascot
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 3100
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:18 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Age: 54

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#214 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:45 pm

Capetonian wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:37 pm
That's very sexist of you, Mr Ex-A.

(Not saying I disagree with you though!)
Even I agree to be honest, men tend to be more technically minded and therefore would probably be more able to comprehend the technical aspects presented to them. I would suggest realistic, not sexist. :D

Edit this is the latest from the DM; https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -told.html I hope he has a good barrister.
RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

G-CPTN
Capt
Capt
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#215 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:18 pm

Not every male is capable of appreciating 'technical' matters.
I had a long conversation with the husband of a very-switched-on female concerning the environmental effects of quarrying alongside a river (extracting gravel to a depth of 17.5 metres, separated from the river only by a 'bund'). I might as well have been talking to a six-year-old child for all the understanding that he displayed yet he continued to ask questions.

G-CPTN
Capt
Capt
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:22 pm
Location: Tynedale

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#216 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:26 pm

Mrs Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:45 pm
Edit this is the latest from the DM; https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -told.html I hope he has a good barrister.
Bear in mind that the initial part of a court case is when the prosecution set out their case - highlighting all the points that they consider to justify the prosecution of the case.
Following this phase, and only then, the defence lawyers contest the evidence and argue their mitigation.
Early media reports of any case can be 'damning' whereas the results can often be otherwise.

User avatar
Capetonian
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 8874
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:44 am
Location: Enjoying the self-destruction of the EU.
Gender:
Age: 65

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#217 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:28 pm

A friend called me once to have a look at his car as it wouldn't start, and asked me to bring jump leads. When I got there, he had opened the bonnet and told me that it would't start because somebody had stolen the engine. It was one of those small Lancia Y10 things.

It normally had a plastic cover over the engine, and that had been removed and not replaced at the previous service, so he was looking directly at the engine, rather than its cover, and just had no clue whatsoever. He's a computer programmer!
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

User avatar
Ex-Ascot
Test Pilot
Test Pilot
Posts: 5766
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2015 7:16 am
Location: Botswana but sometimes Greece
Gender:
Age: 63

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#218 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:32 pm

Jurors were told the Air Accident Investigation Branch report on the crash would not form part of the prosecution's case and should be disregarded.
Can anyone explain this to me please.
'Yes, Madam, I am drunk, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly.' Sir Winston Churchill.

Boac
Chief Pilot
Chief Pilot
Posts: 4657
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:12 pm
Location: Here

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#219 Post by Boac » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:47 pm

I believe that may be the 'law' regarding AAIB reports.

Krystal n Chips
Capt
Capt
Posts: 347
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:53 pm
Location: Near a well known Midlands waypoint

Re: Shoreham Air Show Plane Crash

#220 Post by Krystal n Chips » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:22 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:32 pm
A jury of eight women and four men. Oh bloody hell. How do you explain an aerobatic display in terms of a knitting pattern. I guess just pull the wool over their eyes.
And with the best will in the world, how do you explain the complexities of say a fraud trial or for that matter any trial where the alleged offence involves complex technicalities which the general public, ie a jury, may only have a minimal knowledge of.

This trial involves aviation and there's a wealth of expertise on here able to comment with authority. Had this been say a rail, or maritime accident, then most of us would fall into the above category of having a general idea as to what was involved in the causal factors, but not the depth of professionals in those particular fields.

Post Reply