ET crash ADD NBO

[Boac]

Cape - nearly every 'eye-witness' see an aircraft on fire before crashing - it is said to be a function of the way the brain reacts to shock. Perhaps it was?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

People see what they expect to see, what it is socially acceptable to see, what their best friend said they saw, what the last person said to them they saw, the opposite of what someone they don't like said they saw, what they saw in a movie once then mixed that memory in with the event, etc.
Witness statements are rarely worth anything, but the ones that are can be crucial, so you have to listen to it all then sort the wheat from the chaff. Witness statements taken more than 24 hours later, or after people have seen a news item on the event, are even less use than rarely worth anything; in fact they are normally counterproductive.
I used to do an experiment in class for my Psychology colleague, where the pupils were given scaled photos of the Paris Concorde crash, for the same length of time as a witness. We used the lorry driver's view. Then we asked them what they saw. Then we let them study the photos for as long as they liked, and asked again. Then we showed the video, and asked again. We tried giving different groups only one of these. None of them ever got it right. And this was a bunch of clever kids who had just been taught about misconceptions and visual perception errors, and weren't under any stress.

We'd be better calling them Witlesses.

[barkingmad]

Fox3. I dispute that fully automatic flying is necessarily smoother. Always on the NG my ex JP instructor's desensitised arse felt the pitch reduction then increase when the 'frame followed the A/P demands to increase IAS from 250 to 280kts on a European departure. I always engaged VS mode and teased the ship into the next speed regime.

Similarly, rocketing up to a stop altitude in the climb also required intervention in order to prevent TCAS warnings 'twixt me and my target aircraft.

So despite all the efforts of the boffins the beast would not perform as smoothly and imperceptibly in auto without some "bonobo" meddling.

I agree about the horror expressed by the cojo when a visual circuit is suggested but that is a management & training deficiency which has led us to where we are now with a new generation of captains who are uncomfortable with disco'ing the autos and competent at smoothly handling their $100m toy for the day.

Which leads back into the frequent comments regarding hand flying and the prevalence of LOC accidents, especially at high altitudes but that's for another thread.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I wouldn't dispute your points about certain transitions. I would do similar things in the Tornado and the Citation. This is the attitude of the beanstealers, however, who are unaware that we tweak the things with assorted tricks.

[Pontius Navigator]

On the radio tonight that was echoed. I didn't get full detail in heavy traffic, something about they didn't want to confuse the customer and worry them that they needed to retrain their crews, so they weren't told all the technical details. Conversion was a 56 minute video.

Boeing could cop something worse than Volkswagen if this prove true.

[ian16th]

Comair, the BA franchise holder in South Africa, took delivery of their 1st 737 Max 8 last month.

Earlier today they said that their a/c would keep flying, now the pressure of Farcebook etc has made them change their minds.

The power of the Internet!

[Rwy in Sight]

The BM 1989 accident was similar in that perspective, given the accident crew reacted poorly at some smoke in the flight deck because in their transition were taught the -300 details and that date they were flying a -300. I am curious to see how they are going to handle the Chinese reaction given their market significance.

And I am surprised that people get to know the a/c type they fly on.

[barkingmad]

The next time I can't get to sleep I will distract myself by dreaming up an aptitude/command selection test for the said beanstealers and management who daily make the lives of aircrew more intolerable as time passes.

I'd start with a session on the infamous "Compass Test" and then go on to a panel interview where the success would be judged by how soon they would run from the room weeping and in need of psychological counselling.

Like the RAF, if senior management were judged by their subordinates using the dreaded 'taxonomy of performance levels', then they might start to behave more like human beings instead of the psychopaths who are necessary for the running of modern corporations.

Hence I'm not optimistic regarding the allocation of extra simulator time for the hapless Max crews to master this new animal and its quirky "protection" systems. There will probably be a rash of new bulletins issued after the dust has settled and a requirement for e-signatures as having read & understood whatever the new procedures and warnings are saying. It's much cheaper to do it that way and avoids implying responsibility for the tragedies.

[barkingmad]

Some interesting comments towards the end of this page. Food for thought even though the opinions are post-Lionair and pre ET.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... cas-jt610/

[Boac]

That is a good, clear exposition of MCAS indeed.

I have looked back at my post #15 and am still very puzzled by the ADSB data there. It suggests that for almost 1 minute the a/c accelerated through flap retraction to clean without climbing more than a couple of hundred feet. This is extremely unlikely and leads me to wonder if the air data received by the transponder was at fault, suggesting a different sort of failure. It also raises the question of from what actual height did the final dive commence - the data suggests around 1500ft, but there is no way it should have been that low after 6 minutes airborne. Even after 3 minutes a second set of FR24 data indicates little more than 1000ft AGL but travelling at over 380kts! We await the DFR results, although they could, of course, be corrupted too.

[Boac]

Latest input from the FAA https://t.co/zD9gizwPIc

[Undried Plum]

Boac, The FR data stops 16 miles short of the crash site.

I do, however, concur that it seems odd that the aircraft made so little height agl in good VMC.

Sure, the ADC was evidently producing garbage, but there was plenty of power in hand and the green_over_blue standby attitude indicator just beyond Pilkington's finest was working throughout the flight.

It looks like the Captain was shafted by the damned automatics, again.

No wonder Boeing/FAA wonks are nervously chanting the mantra: 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe 737Max is safe

[Sisemen]

Virgin Australia with 30 on the books started the day saying that it didn’t change anything and that they would be going ahead with the orders. A day of internet chat and it’s changed to “we’re reviewing the orders”. The power of the internet indeed!

[Boac]

"Boac, The FR data stops 16 miles short of the crash site" - I know - I have not found a source for the rest.

[barkingmad]

Does anyone know if there is a history of incident reporting from those who may have encountered this type of event on a Max and survived to bring the 'frame to earth in one piece like the precursor to the Lionair accident?

Does what's left of our CAA have any light to cast on the issue or are the lawyers from Chicago impounding all (safety) info?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Details on the MCAS system. Scary. It appears there are two AoA vanes, but the system does not auto fail if they disagree, and the AoA indicator and AoA disagree indicator are optional extras.
And remember, this is on a system that at least some crews weren't even told about.
You don't know it's there, don't know when it's failed, and it keeps demanding nose down until you switch it off, which you wouldn't know to do.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18439692
If true, Boeing should be up on corporate manslaughter charges, in my view.

[barkingmad]

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/page-1/

Nice to see this lot are on top of the problem?! After 6 pages I lost the will to live having got depressed by the amount of bumph regarding Airbus and other makes. One reference to the 737 Electronic Flight Bag, one to the 777, one to the 727 flaptracks inspection and so on.
And these are the new folks on the block who said the British couldn't safely regulate aviation post-Brexit, licences wouldn't be valid, aircraft couldn't overfly EU etc.
I await the first cuckoo of spring & some noise from EASA, I wonder which will be first?

[Pontius Navigator]

Siesman, Virgin would be silly not to reassess. They were actually silly saying anything to start with.

I know many airlines have grounded the Max and there was a report last night that pax were asking if their flight was in Max.

Are many airlines still flying it?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Three Canadian carriers still are; Air Canada, Westjet, and Sunwing, and the Minister of Transport, a former astronaut, says he'll happily fly on one.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ethiop ... -1.5051663

[k3k3]

UK CAA have banned the 737-8 Max from UK airspace.

Reported on BBC TV just now.