ET crash ADD NBO

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Alisoncc
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#161 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:40 am

Washington: The doomed Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed on Sunday was in trouble almost immediately after takeoff as it lurched up and down by hundreds of metres at a time, the New York Times reported, citing a person who reviewed the jet's air traffic communications.

The captain of the Boeing 737 Max 8 asked in a panicky voice to turn back only three minutes into the flight as the plane accelerated to abnormal speeds, the newspaper reported.
All contact with Flight 302 was lost five minutes after takeoff and even before the captain's radio message, controllers knew he had an emergency, according to the newspaper.

The March 10 crash, the second involving Boeing's 737 Max in less than five months, triggered a wave of groundings for the plane by airlines and regulators around the world and US authorities finally followed them on Wednesday.

The exact nature of the flight's problems is key because investigators are trying to establish whether the crash, which killed all 157 people aboard, is linked to an October disaster in Indonesia involving the same model of plane.

Regulators in the US and Canada have said the profiles of the two short flights are similar, but haven't yet concluded they were caused by the same problem.

The Lion Air flight in Indonesia descended and climbed more than two dozen times as pilots fought against the plane's automated safety system that was trying to push down the nose.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#162 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:58 am

It didn't happen.

Just like all those 737 rudder incidents which also didn't happen.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#163 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:10 am

it lurched up and down by hundreds of metres at a time..... a panicky voice to turn back only three minutes into the flight as the plane accelerated to abnormal speeds.
On a slightly lighter note. So what's new? This sounds like situation normal when I was flying BN2A's in PNG.

Wasn't always a panicky voice. More often than not it was "Oh sh*t, what's it doing now".

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#164 Post by Slasher » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:36 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:58 am
Just like all those 737 rudder incidents which also didn't happen.
No Plum - Boeing did admit to it (sticking hyd shuttle valve IIRC between Sys A and B).

I was on the 737-200 when that sh!t started. The 190kt "crossover" recommended speed was welded into my head until the mod was done on the thing about 3 weeks later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24m-V2f9-sY

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#165 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:03 am

Mr Boeing did not admit to it until it was welded unto his head.

He lied and denied for years, and many many accidents.

All kinds of contrivances were devised, such as the idea that a pilot had reverted to a childhood thing of steering a toboggan with his feet, or getting into a mountain wave rotor wind, or ,or , or anything other than admitting to the fact that the damned thing was over-developed beyond its 707/727 roots.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#166 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:43 am

To those older than me who remembers the 737 rudder incidents: were the aircraft grounded because IIRC that they kept flying - it was in the late 80's isn't that so?

Plus I think the Aero Peru incident was a 757 just like the Birgan air aircraft few months earlier - blocked pitot tube.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#167 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:45 am

A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing 737 Max that crashed last Sunday in Ethiopia indicates the plane was configured to dive, a piece of evidence that helped convince US regulators to ground the model, a person familiar with the investigation said late on Thursday night.

US Federal Aviation Administration chief Daniel Elwell on Wednesday cited unspecified evidence found at the crash scene as part of the justification for the agency to reverse course and temporarily halt flights of Boeing's largest selling aircraft.

US lawmakers say they expect a fix in a matter of weeks to the problems that may have caused the second deadly crash of a Boeing 737 MAX in four months and grounded the plane worldwide. Up until then, American regulators had held off as nation after nation had grounded the plane, Boeing's best-selling jet model.

The piece of evidence was a so-called jackscrew, used to set the trim that raises and lowers the plane's nose, according to the person, who requested anonymity to discuss the inquiry.

A preliminary review of the device and how it was configured at the time of the crash indicated that it was set to push down the nose, according to the person, who wasn't authorized to speak publicly about the investigation.

The jackscrew, combined with a newly obtained satellite flight track of the plane, convinced the FAA that there were similarities to the October 29 crash of the same Max model off the coast of Indonesia.

In the earlier accident, a safety feature on the Boeing aircraft was repeatedly trying to put the plane into a dive as a result of a malfunction.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#168 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:17 am

If anything can be more concerning about this clusterf*ck, it is that these problems with the ET appear to have started just after take-off with, presumably, flaps extended when the system should have been inoperative.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#169 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:50 am

Here's a wildie to throw on the bonfire - with this 'recently discovered' (by me, anyway..) ability of the 73MAX software to deploy spoilers whenever it feels like it (!) coupled with what would appear, from the FR data, to be an unstick speed of around 200kts AND extreme difficulty in controlling pitch once airborne .....see where I'm going?

Apparently HAL on the MAX also deploys spoiler on final approach to 'ensure' the landing attitude is correct for the longer nose-wheel (WHAT!?)

I will gently add that as far as I can see there is MINIMAL indication to the crew that the spoiler has been deployed - the lever does NOT MOVE!

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#170 Post by Capetonian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:55 am

I've just been chatting to a friend who flew 747s for many years before retiring. His views on this over-automation of aircraft controls, and a reliance by flight deck crews on this, which render them incapable of reacting decisively and correctly in an emergency, would make interesting listening!
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#171 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am

Basically what the Chump (amazingly) said.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#172 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:13 am

One or two more details about the MCAS here.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/03/b ... ashed.html

Of interest is that the MCAS still operates in Manual mode. And apparently Boeing didn't (at least initially) put anything about it in the Flight Crew Manuals.
And it runs off one of the flight computers, each of which only runs off one AoA gauge.

So, it is a simplex safety-critical system that crews weren't told about.

Which means, as I said before, that FAA Certification now cannot be trusted either, not just Boeing.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#173 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:55 am

Fox wrote:And apparently Boeing didn't (at least initially) put anything about it in the Flight Crew Manuals.
- not sure about that - if they did, it was minimal and insufficient.

I quite agree with your comments on the FAA.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#174 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:05 am

Yet another 'anomaly' in this whole MCAS thing. There are no reports I have seen from any US MAX operators about MCAS malfunction. Why? I think the ones we have seen about 'anomalies' with autopilot engagement may be down to ignorance/incorrect use of automatics.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#175 Post by Capetonian » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:41 am

I was thinking the same, first and foremost this seems to be a training/awareness concern.

It might be a fair assumption that those standards are lower in countries such as Indonesia and Ethiopia. If I had to get on a 737Max tomorrow, flown by an airline whom I would trust, such as LX, LH, OS, BA, U2, I would not be too worried. There's no way I would fly on an airline like Lion Air or ET other than in extremis.
One thing you can say for the French, when civilization falls they have less far to fall than everyone else.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#176 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:48 am

Cape, maybe, but the more I read here the less i want to fly Boeing😀

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#177 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:49 am

No, Cape, that is not my point - I am talking about MALFUNCTIONS of the system, not crew actions/training/awareness. Malfunctions will strike anywhere UNLESS there is a maintenance issue where 'location' could indeed be relevant.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#178 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:33 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:05 am
Yet another 'anomaly' in this whole MCAS thing. There are no reports I have seen from any US MAX operators about MCAS malfunction. Why? I think the ones we have seen about 'anomalies' with autopilot engagement may be down to ignorance/incorrect use of automatics.
I refer to this earlier posting:
Alisoncc wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 am
Two Boeing 737 MAX 8 pilots reported nosedives after engaging autopilot in 2018, data reveals.
Airline pilots on at least two US flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 MAX 8 planes to tilt down suddenly.

In reports filed last year in a database compiled by NASA, the pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on their planes, the nose tilted down sharply.

In both cases they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot, they said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/ ... a/10895542

Could be more to it than just crook AoA sensors.
Is it solely an MCAS issue of does it go deeper? The ET issue seems to have come about when flaps were deployed,ie. immediately after take off.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#179 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:14 pm

"The ET issue seems to have come about when flaps were deployed,ie. immediately after take off."

Post #168 Hence yet another puzzle.

The 'pitch' on A/P engagement is not unknown and could possibly, as I said, be due to "ignorance/incorrect use of automatics." and may well be anomalous here. BUT, the way Boeing has been behaving, who knows?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#180 Post by Undried Plum » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:55 pm

Boac wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:50 am
Here's a wildie to throw on the bonfire - with this 'recently discovered' (by me, anyway..) ability of the 73MAX software to deploy spoilers whenever it feels like it (!) coupled with what would appear, from the FR data, to be an unstick speed of around 200kts AND extreme difficulty in controlling pitch once airborne .....see where I'm going?
Yup.
Apparently HAL on the MAX also deploys spoiler on final approach to 'ensure' the landing attitude is correct for the longer nose-wheel (WHAT!?)

I will gently add that as far as I can see there is MINIMAL indication to the crew that the spoiler has been deployed - the lever does NOT MOVE!
It looks more and more like the 730Max designers wanted to design an Airbus but didn't know how.

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