How not to fly an aeroplane

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TheGreenGoblin
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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#21 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:43 am

Boac wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:32 am
TGG wrote:The FlightChannel videos are generally very good.
To qualify - they are great for anyone who doesn't understand basic flying, ie they are tailored for the lowest common denominator. The C17 crash video is a case in point. Presentation of the 'history' but a lot of irrelevant information in the rush to appeal to the 'rabble'.
I agree, but still a lot better than the usual tosh that gets even the basics totally wrong. =))

Reading the report that I linked to above, it seems that all of this crew were inured to ignoring the stall warner and tickling the fully stalled devil's tail. The whole sortie started off in a sloppy way with the initial performance take off target speed being undershot by some 26 knots, didn't achieve briefed altitude, and things just got worse thereafter, flap retraction at below minimum retraction speed, overbank beyond briefed 45 degrees, stall warner ignored, overbank beyond 60 degrees, angle of attack limitation system overridden by brute force, stall, crash, fireball, dead!

Rogue.JPG
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#22 Post by Boac » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:09 pm

Amused by the over-use of 'Mishap' - they could have said 'Accident' :)) A little closer to events, I feel.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#23 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:51 pm

Boac wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:09 pm
Amused by the over-use of 'Mishap' - they could have said 'Accident' :)) A little closer to events, I feel.
Perhaps he is English? Mishap, is a very English word, in its understatement! =))
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#24 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:07 pm

Aircrew love airshows. I benefitted from an airshow in NZ.

Joe Public also like airshows but what do airshows achieve?

Airshows kill. Should airshows, especially military ones - your tax dollars for someone else's pleasure - continue?

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#25 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:12 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:07 pm
Aircrew love airshows. I benefitted from an airshow in NZ.

Joe Public also like airshows but what do airshows achieve?

Airshows kill. Should airshows, especially military ones - your tax dollars for someone else's pleasure - continue?
Tax dollars? I have tended to pay pounds for the privilege of seeing some wonderful aircraft, flown by some very competent people do some very wonderful flying in them. Of course airshows should continue, here, in the USA and elsewhere! :)

I mean, if it hadn't been for airshows, what would you loafers in the RAF have done over the weekends? =)) The Taine Ranges are always shut and Valley somnolent, whenever I have flown by... ;)))
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#26 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:29 pm

TGG, this clip shows a standard Nimrod display. The last little segment is the Toronto crash.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#27 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:46 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:29 pm
TGG, this clip shows a standard Nimrod display. The last little segment is the Toronto crash.
Ouch, at the Toronto display. An accelerated stall, sudden power asymmetry...? Looks like a stall to me.

You realise that I am now going to have to read the accident report!

http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas ... _xv239.pdf
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#28 Post by llondel » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:55 pm

Boac wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:32 am
TGG wrote:The FlightChannel videos are generally very good.
To qualify - they are great for anyone who doesn't understand basic flying, ie they are tailored for the lowest common denominator. The C17 crash video is a case in point. Presentation of the 'history' but a lot of irrelevant information in the rush to appeal to the 'rabble'.
The Discovery Channel ones are interesting too, but manage to take an hour (including adverts) to cover what is probably no more than half an hour of relevant stuff, given all the repetition to cope with the fact that everyone always forgets what happened before the ad break.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#29 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:02 pm

TGG, and this:


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22819

In this case one of the navigators and of course the crew chief were not on the flight.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#30 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:10 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:02 pm
TGG, and this:


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22819

In this case one of the navigators and of course the crew chief were not on the flight.
The videos are the same PN.

Well the earlier display looked good. The Nimrod was such a graceful aircraft. I have now read the report on the crash. The cause not very far removed from the C-17 crash noted above it seems. Sad to see. You aren't the absent navigator are you?
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#31 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:28 pm

No. When we did displays we always flew as a full crew. During the routine I would stand between the pilots and act as a talking ASI. Quite sporty at about 155 kts in a tight turn at a couple of hundred feet.
An exception to full crew was an initial practice with Ron Dick supervising my skipper. SOP was for the radar scanner to be strapped up. Ron Dick said it wasn't necessary but my kit, I insisted. At the end of the display we did our usual departure, nose raised and climb until the airspeed decayed to 170 kts. At this point Ron said lower the nose. I think the idea was to rotate the aircraft about 70-80 degrees and allow the nose to drop. That's the way I seem to remember. Instead my skipper over rotated so we were still nose up, climbing, but now inverted.

At this point I should say our attitude indicator was of no use and the pilots could not see the ground. We recovered and all the loose articles had miraculously stowed themselves.

When we did our display for real, no dramas. Passing 20,000 feet the AEO called me to look through the periscope and I had a perfect view of the airfield we had displayed at - through the upper periscope.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#32 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:37 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:28 pm

At this point I should say our attitude indicator was of no use and the pilots could not see the ground. We recovered and all the loose articles had miraculously stowed themselves.

When we did our display for real, no dramas. Passing 20,000 feet the AEO called me to look through the periscope and I had a perfect view of the airfield we had displayed at - through the upper periscope.
I assume that everybody was strapped in during the recovery from this somewhat unusual attitude?
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#33 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:51 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:37 pm
Pontius Navigator wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:28 pm
I assume that everybody was strapped in during the recovery from this somewhat unusual attitude?
No, I was standing on the ladder holding on. As I was wearing my parachute and bone dome I was quite secure.

Incidentally about the 3rd or 4th step on most Vulcans was bent. I think the stress engineers' assumptions were wrong 😊

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#34 Post by Undried Plum » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:58 pm

Boac wrote:
Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:09 pm
Amused by the over-use of 'Mishap' - they could have said 'Accident' :)) A little closer to events, I feel.
I think that it's an ideological thing to avoid using the word 'accident'. It's to avoid giving the impression that the crash was some kind of fluke or random occurrence.

In the cases of the B-52 and the C-17 the crashes were directly caused by the handling pilot acting like a cowboy and making some crass handling mistakes. That's not really accidental.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#35 Post by Boac » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:21 pm

Likewise the C-130, HP and the rest of them.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#36 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:55 pm

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:19 pm



Tony Kern's book is well worth reading... it is useful in any industry in fact.





The FlightChannel videos are generally very good... thanks for posting UP.
Which book?

[/quote]

Flight Discipline. The principles noted in there pertain in multiple industries.
[/quote]

Book ordered today it would be here within a month hopefully. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#37 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:09 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:55 pm

Book ordered today it would be here within a month hopefully. Thanks for the suggestion.
Hope you enjoy it RiS. :-bd
Depressed, feeling a slump, then remember Lift = Coefficient of Lift x 1/2 x ρ x V-squared X S!

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Re: How not to fly an aeroplane

#38 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:16 am

It seems a good book TGG unfortunately it is at least 4 weeks away.

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