Para Drop Aircraft Crash

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FD2
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#21 Post by FD2 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:00 am

The MU-2 was a bit too advanced for some inexperienced pilots then? The Vigilante was restricted - no first tour pilots allowed.
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#22 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:07 am

FD2 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:00 am
The MU-2 was a bit too advanced for some inexperienced pilots then? The Vigilante was restricted - no first tour pilots allowed.
Yes, I believe so. Another aircraft that got a bad reputation on that basis is/was the Smith Aerostar 600.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

I suspect that PHXPhlyer is right about owner single pilot operators of complex types that also fly passengers themselves (or even if they do fly with another pilot). They simply don't always operate in an operational environment that allows for recency, currency, recurrent training, best CRM practice, and operational and maintenance excellence, and are thus less likely to safe as a cadre of pilots, or operators, although they are not necessarily intrinsically bad pilots. Of course this characterisation doesn't pertain in all cases.

I am not saying that there aren't or haven't been unsafe aircraft, there clearly have been, and some aircraft are better than others, but in the modern era, most demonstrably unsafe aircraft have been restricted, declared not airworthy, discontinued, or (are being) rectified (vide. the Comet, the Boeing 737 Max etc).

Your comment about the vigilante is right on the button I think. I have always been fascinated by the history of that complex, groundbreaking aircraft type. It pushed the technological envelope, and was indeed initially bleeding edge, but on that basis moved the whole military aviation paradigm forward..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... _Vigilante
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#23 Post by OFSO » Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:35 am

Thread drift - digging deep into what remains of my memory, West Germany bought the F-104 Starfighter because of some financial interest in Lockheed by the president of Bavaria, FranzJosep Strauss. Something murky anyway. Lots of protests at the time which the West German government shrugged off.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#24 Post by FD2 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:17 am

I remember walking around the Scottish Aviation hangar at Prestwick where the Canadian CF104s were refurbished. There was a Canadian pilot based there who ferried them backwards and forwards from Germany where they were based. He told us that the German F104G had too much jammed into it to make it multi-role, so the avionics caused big problems, not helped by them being kept outside in all weather so they were cold and soaked frequently. I can't remember whether he said that was so they could get airborne in double quick time to intercept incoming threats or what.

A chum bummed a ride in a Danish one at Aalborg when we were on detachment there - he described it as the ride of his life.

I woke up one morning in Helston to the unique sound of the Belgian display team practising for Culdrose Air Day - the air was filled with that howling engine noise.

An amazing little pocket rocket which we saw when we walked around the RCAF one - in for a major check at Prestwick - duck or get scalped by the sharp leading edges of those little wings. The departure from Prestwick for Germany in good weather was amazing as he liked to put on a show. He had plenty of fuel with the two drop tanks and would keep it low until he'd built up enough speed then pull the nose back and disappear vertically to his transit level.
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#25 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:26 am

The 2021 Menzelinsk parachute Let L-410UVP-E crash occurred near the town of Menzelinsk, Tatarstan, Russia on 10 October 2021.

Immediately after taking off from the local airfield, the L-410 aircraft belonging to DOSAAF Russia began to lose altitude and crashed into the ground. 16 of the 22 people onboard were killed, including both crew members and 14 parachutists, while 6 other parachutists survived.

The aircraft took off at 09:05, but at an altitude of around 70 metres, the left engine failed. The crew attempted to turn back to the airfield. However, at 09:11 Moscow Time (12:11 UTC), the plane crashed into the ground in an industrial area to the southwest of Menzelinsk and about 1700 metres from the air traffic control at Menzelinsk airport. After hitting the ground, it collided with a GAZ car, firewood and a reinforced concrete wall, which destroyed the fuselage and wings but no fire followed.

Investigation
The Central Interregional Investigative Directorate for Transport of the Investigative Committee of Russia began an investigation into the crash. A possible cause was overloading or failure of one of the engines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Menz ... VP-E_crash

Interestingly this DOSAAF Let L-410UVP-E follows a similar one earlier this year.
A DOSAAF L-410UVP-E3 (RF-94603), serial number 21-05 crashed on a field near Tanay Airport, Kemerovo Oblast, Russia with 19 on board of which at seven lost their lives. The aircraft was on a training flight with parachutists. During the flight, the captain had reported an engine failure and decided to return the aircraft to the airport, which during the process of turning it around, the aircraft stalled and clipped trees with its wings,then crashed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Keme ... VP-E_crash

DOSAAF might want to look at their maintenance, their Let aircraft engines, pilot engine out procedure training, and operations generally

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSAAF
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#26 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:36 am

List of Let aircraft crashes/incidents

Locations of Let operation, Russia, Africa etc. seem to have one thing in common, most are countries with poor aviation safety records whatever the aircraft. The L-410 is a work horse, often flying out of rough airfields in the far East of Russia, Africa, Cuba, South America etc. It is used, often abused, flying parachutists etc.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#27 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:56 am

Switch the sound off before you play this one (the music is ghastly) but it shows a L-410 being mishandled while doing a parachute drop...

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#28 Post by llondel » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:05 pm

At what point does it transition from being mishandled (as in stalling it) and doing a masterful recovery so as not to crash or chop up those who just jumped out? I would have thought that if you've jumped out, you don't want see see your aircraft underneath you in the next few seconds, you want to be well behind it.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#29 Post by PHXPhlyer » Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:29 pm

llondel wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:05 pm
At what point does it transition from being mishandled (as in stalling it) and doing a masterful recovery so as not to crash or chop up those who just jumped out? I would have thought that if you've jumped out, you don't want see see your aircraft underneath you in the next few seconds, you want to be well behind it.
And below. :-o

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#30 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:48 am

As some of you know the problem with para dropping is that all the idiots want to leave the aircraft at the same time to join up and holds hands and feet or whatever :-o They will climb out and hang on to bits of the aircraft to achieve this aim. This makes it an incredibly unstable thing to fly. OK the accident in question had nothing to do with this.

Just seen he tried to turn back from 70m (229') on one engine fully loaded. Prat.

We still haven't got the METAR :-q
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#31 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:58 am

Wonder which way he turned, though probably not much difference.

A friend of mine in JP did a successful turn back, saved the aircraft and got a bollocking for so doing and setting a bad example.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#32 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:47 am

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:58 am
Wonder which way he turned, though probably not much difference.

A friend of mine in JP did a successful turn back, saved the aircraft and got a bollocking for so doing and setting a bad example.
I can't remember the recommended minimum for a turn back in the JP. 1,000' (?) Maybe more.
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#33 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:33 am

IDK but I think he was less than that, hence the bollocking.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#34 Post by Rwy in Sight » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm

Isn't that a fabulous example of airmanship - which clashes with good adherence on SOP?

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#35 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:14 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:27 pm
Isn't that a fabulous example of airmanship - which clashes with good adherence on SOP?
Either that or a big dollop of luck! :-bd
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#36 Post by Pontius Navigator » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:31 pm

Well he got to the Falklands and back without landing or losing his probe.

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#37 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:44 pm

Pontius Navigator wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:31 pm
Well he got to the Falklands and back without landing or losing his probe.
Skilful people are often very lucky... ;)))
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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#38 Post by Undried Plum » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:19 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:48 am
tried to turn back from 70m (229') on one engine fully loaded.
Were his last words "Hold ma beer and watch this" ?

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#39 Post by Ex-Ascot » Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:17 am

Undried Plum wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:19 pm
Ex-Ascot wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:48 am
tried to turn back from 70m (229') on one engine fully loaded.
Were his last words "Hold ma beer and watch this" ?
Like this?

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Re: Para Drop Aircraft Crash

#40 Post by Boac » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:59 am

Anyone know what performance category this a/c operates on on the UK register - if, indeed, it is on it?

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