Germanwings crash 2015

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Germanwings crash 2015

#1 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:59 am

The BEA report suggests that some of those treating the co-pilot for his significant mental issues were 'probably' aware of his 'profession' but took no action to report his condition - wonderful. From the report:
In February 2015, a private physician diagnosed a psychosomatic disorder and an
anxiety disorder and referred the co-pilot to a psychotherapist and psychiatrist. On 10
March 2015, the same physician diagnosed a possible psychosis and recommended
psychiatric hospital treatment. A psychiatrist prescribed anti-depressant and sleeping
aid medication in February and March 2015. Neither of those health care providers,
who were probably aware of the co-pilot’s profession, informed any aviation authority,
nor any other authority about the co-pilot’s mental state.


I assume these medical 'professionals' are aware of what they have caused?

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#2 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:27 pm

Medical in confidence old boy. And, it does say 'probably' aware.

His AME can't have been that thorough. Any good examiner should have been able to detect mental abnormalities. Not sure what blood tests are done these days. Could these have picked up prescribed drugs?
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#3 Post by Boac » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:19 pm

Medical in confidence old boy
- bolleau, 'old boy'. In my book they failed to do their duty, and look what happened. In my book 'were probably aware' is huggy fluffy speak for 'did know' - and Trumps (if I may use that expression here) 'probably were not aware'.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#4 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:45 pm

Yes I do agree. Calls for a change in international law regarding 'medical in confidence'. Will be very complicated and take a long time to implement. This would not only apply to airline pilots though but to other professions who are responsible for people's lives.

A short term solution is, as with the military, you are not permitted to seek outside medical attention. It is the company doctor who is cleared to pass on problems to the management or a seconded doctor with the same remit.
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#5 Post by 500N » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:55 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:Medical in confidence old boy. And, it does say 'probably' aware.

His AME can't have been that thorough. Any good examiner should have been able to detect mental abnormalities. Not sure what blood tests are done these days. Could these have picked up prescribed drugs?



Blood test, yes, will pick up but you need to test for them.

Just reading the OP's quoted text, the mind boggles that 1. It was not referred and 2. Re "A psychiatrist prescribed anti-depressant and sleeping aid medication in February and March 2015", why was he flying an aircraft when it seems from what I have observed of people on them, most of these drugs come with a warning not to drive when taking them due to side effects and / or drowsiness.

The way that reads, this guy didn't just have minor psychiatric problems.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#6 Post by rgbrock1 » Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:25 pm

I am of the opinion that the psychiatrists and/or psychologists who treated him are just as guilty in the deaths of the passengers and flight crew as he was.
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#7 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:02 pm

RGB, in my view, even more so. He was unhinged, beyond reasonable judgment and clearly suicidal (well he proved that one). The quacks should have rung the alarm bells. My views on the way forward I mentioned earlier in this thread. Change in the law for 'medical in confidence' for professionals resonsible for people's lives and a restriction to pilots only being able to consult with the company doctors or nominated associates.
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#8 Post by 500N » Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:14 pm

Ex

I agree.


After all, they stop people from driving who are on "drugs" of some kinds,
why not professionals.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#9 Post by Pinky the pilot » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:47 am

I am of the opinion that the psychiatrists and/or psychologists who treated him are just as guilty in the deaths of the passengers and flight crew as he was.


Concur.
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#10 Post by OFSO » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:40 am

the psychiatrists and/or psychologists who treated him are just as guilty

But not in the eyes of the German judicial system, which prohibited them from disclosing information from their patient or disclosing their own professional conclusions. I'm sure many of us have been caught in similar quandries (although probably not where lives are concerned). You find out something at work, maybe criminal or just morally wrong: but you are not allowed to disseminate the information. What do you do ? On the one occasion I did the 'right thing' I spent years afterwards wishing I had not.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#11 Post by rgbrock1 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:58 am

OFSO wrote:the psychiatrists and/or psychologists who treated him are just as guilty

But not in the eyes of the German judicial system, which prohibited them from disclosing information from their patient or disclosing their own professional conclusions. I'm sure many of us have been caught in similar quandries (although probably not where lives are concerned). You find out something at work, maybe criminal or just morally wrong: but you are not allowed to disseminate the information. What do you do ? On the one occasion I did the 'right thing' I spent years afterwards wishing I had not.


Curious, OFSO. What would cause you to wish you hadn't done the right thing?
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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#12 Post by compo » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:56 pm

rgbrock1 wrote:Curious, OFSO. What would cause you to wish you hadn't done the right thing?


Two words - Edward Snowden.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#13 Post by Slasher » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:33 am

Just received this through a mate. I have no mercy whatsoever for that mass murderer Lubitz. A pilot is entrusted with the lives of all aboard and this bastard betrayed that trust by willfully murdering them. I hope he's burning in Hell alongside that other madman who deliberately crashed Silkair 185 years earlier.

Similar IMO can also be said of the doctor's who did nothing positive to cancel that paycho's licence.





As a (former) 320 capt I can vouch for the cockpit accuracy. For those unfamiliar with certain terms:

TWO THOUSAND - an automated call indicating radio altimeter altitude.

OPEN DESCENT - by selecting a lower altitude on the combing panel and pulling the selector knob, the aircraft will nose down at the selected airspeed (other knob, in this case Mmo) at idle engine thrust.

TERRAIN TERRAIN! - a caution indicating that, if appropriate measures are not taken to change the aircraft trajectory, impact will occur in 30 secs.

SINK RATE! - a caution indicating the sink rate is too high within the Ground Proximty Warning System envelope for that caution.

PULL UP! (repeatedly) - impact is imminent. Immediate memory actions are to simultaneously pull FULL backstick and push the throttles balls the wall, ensure wings are level and check that the speedbrakes are fully retracted.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#14 Post by probes » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:35 am

Thanks, a good one ( + the 'extra' for the layman!)

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#15 Post by OFSO » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:45 pm

You wonder at a German doctor putting confidentiality laws over public safety ? Mrs OFSO was at her German doctors this morning. He always used to stick his head out of his surgery and call the name of the next person down to the waiting room. No more. He told my wife with no hint of a smile that he's been told revealing a patient's name in front of other patients breaches the new data protection law. And so he goes along with it...

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#16 Post by probes » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:01 am

:) - so, what's the procedure now? - Next, you, with the big nose and floppy ears? [nothing inferred about your wife, of course!!]

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#17 Post by G-CPTN » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:06 pm

probes wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:01 am
:) - so, what's the procedure now? - Next, you, with the big nose and floppy ears? [nothing inferred about your wife, of course!!]
The procedure as practised by our GP 50 years ago - each patient is given a numbered disc and patients are called in turn by number.
The GP retrieves the discs as each patient enters the consulting room.

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Re: Germanwings crash 2015

#18 Post by OFSO » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 pm

That only works in a practice with a doctor taking patients in order. But where you have one person needing 5mns for a routine injection from the nurse, and another for an hour's consultation, and another only 30 seconds before having a CAT or MRI scan, the doctor scans the waiting room and uses his discretion as to whom to call in next.

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Passengers didn't suffer anxiety?

#19 Post by Capetonian » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:19 pm

LH is disputing that the passengers on flight German Wings 2595 would have suffered 'distress or anxiety' as the aircraft was flown into a mountainside. Had they been fast asleep I could perhaps begin to understand, but not agree with, this contention.

Given that it was daylight and even those sleeping would have been alerted and woken by screaming, banging on the cockpit door, rapid descent, and general panic, it seems inconceivable that anyone could believe for one moment that there was not sheer terror on the aircraft.

If this is true as reported, I may be boycotting LH in future. Rather unfortunate since they one of a dwindling number of airlines that I will fly on, although I suppose it leaves LX and OS.
No suffering before death? Lufthansa angers relatives of 2015 Germanwings crash, media reports say

German airline giant Lufthansa has outraged relatives of people who died in a plane crash of its subsidiary four years ago with a controversial denial of compensation, reports say.

In March 2015, severely depressed co-pilot Andreas Lubitz intentionally crashed a Germanwings plane with 150 passengers on board in a remote area of the French Alps. The families of the victims still seek damages for pain and suffering from the parent company – Lufthansa.

The latter, however, has no plans to pay them, according to several local media outlets. They report that the airline issued a letter arguing that the relatives are not entitled to compensation because the people on board the doomed flight did not suffer from death anxiety.

In Germany, moral injury compensation in such cases is partly based on the extent of suffering the victims had to endure before death. The company apparently seeks to prove that their death was quick and unexpected by saying that the passengers hardly noticed the plane sweeping down. In a 120-page document seen by German WDR, Lufthansa’s lawyers are demanding the regional court in the city of Essen dismiss the plaintiffs’ claims for this reason.

Their position has outraged the relatives of the victims. They argue that it is clear the passengers were aware that “something terrible is happening” and feared for their lives. Before the crash, Lubitz locked the pilot out of the cockpit, and he was desperately knocking on the door to get back in – and that was something the passengers must have heard.

“The term ‘torture’ is insufficient to describe” what these people have gone through, Elmar Giemulla, a lawyer representing the relatives of 40 crash victims, told the German media. As the plane rushed to the ground, they must have been aware that their “last minutes of life are coming.”

Klaus Radner, who lost his daughter and her husband in the crash, lashed out at Lufthansa, decrying its letter as “shameful.”

Initially, Germanwings and the relatives of the victims agreed upon compensation amounting to €25,000 per victim. Now, the families of those who died in the crash are demanding €25,000 more as compensation for moral injury from Lufthansa. A court hearing is expected sometime this autumn.

The 2015 tragedy sparked a scandal as it was revealed that Lubitz was suffering from acute depression and insomnia, and was diagnosed with a mental disorder and referred to a psychiatric clinic just weeks before the crash but was still allowed to fly the plane.

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