Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

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Capetonian

Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#41 Post by Capetonian » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:13 pm

There's some damning stuff in the press today about the Fly Dubai accident at Rostov on Don. It relates primarily to the company culture and I imagine that Emirates would be much the same.
Nasty people. Nasty airline. Nasty place. Turn your back on them.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#42 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:27 pm

Cape, hope you are still moving around the globe swiftish. The boys with the tea towel and fan belt headgear, wearing nighties are are looking for you with their bejeweled daggers :-o W@nkers the lot of them.
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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#43 Post by Capetonian » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:41 pm

I've been told that I'm on alert list if I ever set foot in Dubai or any of those other shithole Emirates. That effectively means I'm banned from flying on Emirates. As I have a self imposed ban anyway, I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it.
In any case I expect that the threat is total b*******.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#44 Post by ian16th » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:12 pm

Cynicism improves with age

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#45 Post by Alisoncc » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:35 pm

Not wishing to play the role of devil's advocate, a counter argument perhaps.

Although it's been a while since I've travelled internationally I do have memories of a BA flight where the Cabin Crew were insistent upon all handbags being stowed in the overhead lockers. My handbag contained all my travel documents. all ID documents and all funds - credit cards, TC's, and actual cash. etc. etc. Whilst there may be many here who have supreme confidence in the willingness of the "authorities" to assist if all were lost, the reality is there is no way I would have disembarked without said bag. So sorry for all those burnt alive because of my intransigence, but .......

How many here have actually been in a situation where they have "tested" their ability to cope with loss of everything per above in some Godforsaken hole at the back of beyond? Any ??

Imagine if you will finding yourself in Outer Mongolia, deepest Africa or the Middle East, having been deposited there by some trashy airline after an incident necessitating your evacuation sans everything, no thanks. "Authorities" helping, you would have to be joking. As for being able to retrieve your goods and chattels after the event should it be possible. the probability of all items of value having been "lost" in many places renders that argument implausible.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#46 Post by Capetonian » Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:42 pm

Alison you make a good point.
When I travel I usually keep those items in a small pouch or bag which goes into the seat pocket in front of me (I don't travel on the airline that doesn't have sets pockets), or at the side of my seat.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#47 Post by OFSO » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:56 pm

Whether on a plane or a train, I always keep my passport and wallet in my buttoned-up inside jacket pockets, wearing the jacket of course. Never in hand luggage.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#48 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:07 pm

Alisoncc,

I asked about this very point a few posts up. It would be maybe interesting to differentiate if you arrive as a single pax having lost your valuables and ID's or if you are a pax evacuated forming a large group. However it seems it makes no big difference as show on the Las Vegas incident where people with passports (and bags) did find their way to BA paid hotel those leaving everything behind had a harder time.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#49 Post by A Lutra Continua » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:03 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:GIVE ME FULL THRUST AND GIVE IT TO ME NOW.

OFSO, as any pilot of my generation knows that means shoving those lever things in your right hand up towards the pointy end pronto. End of discussion. Most of the new generation of so called pilots (airline) are just system operators. This was proven in the SFO prang. My airline (Monarch) positively encouraged hands on visual approaches. Good practice and saved time and fuel. We all knew how to actually fly an aircraft.



Never liked the idea of a computer second guessing me. Got to have faith in your own abilities and ensure you remain competent in using them.

Brings me back to my old gripe about PPL students spending big money on the latest GPS equipment instead of using the funds to go out in a light aircraft and learn how to read a map and navigate by looking out the window. I know of licenced pilots who will not leave the circuit without a GPS, despite the destination being visible on the horizon. Those same pilots are quite happy to penetrate foul weather without the necessary qualification to survive it because they think they always know where they are, so what could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#50 Post by ian16th » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:18 am

OFSO wrote:Whether on a plane or a train, I always keep my passport and wallet in my buttoned-up inside jacket pockets, wearing the jacket of course. Never in hand luggage.


When I traveled a lot on business, I had a zip-up wind cheater, modified by a friendly Indian tailor with large zipped inside pockets.

Over the years it proved to be proof against losing or having such documents stolen.
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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#51 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:25 am

Since we turn the conversation towards in-flight personal document storage, my perfect solution are the personal travel during summer when I can wear my Bermuda shorts with large external pockets where I can store passport, wallet, smartphone, compact camera, spectacles case, etc. So I can walk into and out of an aircraft in normal circumstances or not without cabin bags.
Unfortunately trousers with large external pockets not part of an armed forces uniform are frown upon. Plus when on a plane, train, car or vessel, I don't like to wear a jacket so I have some issues with storing documents in trouser's pockets.

Plus I do carry on my keys, a USB with scanned copies (encoded) of my personal documents. If I get access to a computer I can have copies printed. It worked, for a cousin of mine, when he had his wallet stolen in Italy where the local prints printed his documents and stamped them as certified copies (or whatever the term is).

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#52 Post by ian16th » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:42 pm

Rwy in Sight wrote:Plus I do carry on my keys, a USB with scanned copies (encoded) of my personal documents. If I get access to a computer I can have copies printed. It worked, for a cousin of mine, when he had his wallet stolen in Italy where the local prints printed his documents and stamped them as certified copies (or whatever the term is).


I keep mine on the memory card in my dumb phone. Also scans of my credit and debit cards.
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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#53 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:01 pm

Ian, I do the same.

RiS I do worry about you in your Bermuda shorts on an aircraft with pockets stuffed with all your worldly goods (yes, enough said) and probably a few mezzes and bottles of ouzo should you have to ditch. But you will probably get jammed half way down the slide.

It has all gone very quiet in DXB.
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Re: M-rats 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#54 Post by Slasher » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:15 pm

I was just wondering where the remains of the aircraft are. Did they bury it on the spot or toss it into the Gulf?

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#55 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:36 pm

Almost certainly shovelled into the sand.
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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#56 Post by Slasher » Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:41 am

Hmm....

I haven't done a DXB since the prang but some of the boys say the surface scars bear that of either -

- a massive cleanup will bulldoze marks.
- a burial site.

By the time I get there the evidence will've been fully replanted and resurfaced.

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#57 Post by Sisemen » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:10 am

Probably was chucked into the ocean, covered with sand and had a hotel built on it!

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#58 Post by OFSO » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:22 am

RiS I do worry about you in your Bermuda shorts

I will start worrying when/if I actually cast eyes on RiS in his Bermuda shorts and then only if his legs aren't attractive. Ooooh, what a give-away !

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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#59 Post by ian16th » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:19 pm

From the African Pilot Newsletter:

Emirates B777 EK521 crash was an accident waiting to happen
By Byron Bailey who is a commercial pilot with more than 45 years’ experience and 26,000 flying hours and a former RAAF fighter pilot. He was a senior captain with Emirates for 15 years.

The crash of an Emirates B777 during an attempted go-around in Dubai on Wednesday two weeks ago was always an accident waiting to happen. It was not the fault of the pilots, the airline or Boeing, because this accident could have happened to any pilot in any airline flying any modern glass cockpit airliner; Airbus, Boeing or Bombardier or a large corporate jet with autothrottle. It is the result of the imperfect interaction of the pilots with supposedly failsafe automatics, which pilots are rigorously trained to trust, which in this case failed them.

First, let us be clear about the effect of hot weather on the day. All twin-engine jet aircraft are certified at maximum take-off weight to climb away on one engine after engine failure on take-off at the maximum flight envelope operating temperature; 50 degrees C in the case of a B777 to reach a regulatory climb gradient minimum of 2.4 per cent. The Emirates B777-300 was operating on two engines and at a lower landing weight, so climb performance should not have been a problem. I have operated for years out of Dubai in summer, where the temperature is often in the high 40s, in both wide body Airbus and Boeing B777 aircraft.

Secondly, a pilot colleague observed exactly what happened as he was there, waiting in his aircraft to cross runway 12L. The B777 bounced and began a go-around. The aircraft reached about 150 feet (45 metres) with its landing gear retracting, then began to sink to the runway. This suggests that the pilots had initiated a go-around as they had been trained to do and had practiced hundreds of times in simulators, but the engines failed to respond in time to the pilot-commanded thrust. Why?

Bounces are not uncommon. They happen to all pilots occasionally. What was different with the Emirates B777 bounce was that the pilot elected to go around. This should not have been a problem as pilots are trained to apply power, pitch up (raise the nose) and climb away. However, pilots are not really trained for go-arounds after a bounce; we practice go-arounds from a low approach attitude.
Modern jets have auto throttles as part of the auto flight system. They have small TOGA (take off/go-around) switches on the throttle levers they click to command auto throttles to control the engines, to deliver the required thrust. Pilots do not physically push up the levers by themselves but trust the auto throttles to do this, although it is common to rest your hand on the top of the levers. So, on a go-around, all the pilot does is click the TOGA switches, pull back on the control column to raise the nose and when the other pilot, after observing positive climb, announces it; calls ‘gear up’ and away we go!

But in the Dubai case, because the wheels had touched the runway, the landing gear sensors told the auto flight system computers that the aircraft had landed. So when the pilot clicked TOGA, the computers, without him initially realising it, inhibited TOGA as part of their design protocols and refused to spool up the engines as the pilot commanded. Imagine the situation. One pilot, exactly as he has been trained, clicks TOGA and concentrates momentarily on his pilot’s flying display (PFD) to raise the nose of the aircraft to the required go-around attitude, not realising his command for TOGA thrust has been ignored. The other pilot is concentrating on his PFD altimeter to confirm that the aircraft is climbing due to the aircraft momentum. Both suddenly realise the engines are still at idle, as they had been since the auto throttles retarded them at approximately 30 feet during the landing flare. There is a shock of realisation and frantic manual pushing of levers to override the autothrottle pressure. But too late. The big engines take seconds to deliver the required thrust before and before that is achieved the aircraft sinks to the runway. It could have happened to any pilot caught out by an unusual, time-critical event, for which rigorous simulator training had not prepared him.

Automation problems leading to pilot confusion are not uncommon; but the designers of the auto flight system protocols should have anticipated this one. Perhaps an audible warning such as ‘manual override required’ to alert the pilots immediately of the ‘automation disconnect’. My feeling is the pilots were deceived initially by the auto throttles refusal to spool up the engines, due to the landing inhibits, and a very high standard of simulator training by which pilots are almost brainwashed to totally rely on the automatics as being correct all the time.​
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Re: Emerates 777 gear uplanding at DXB

#60 Post by Ex-Ascot » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:46 pm

Ian, yes indeed I have seen this. As many posters here have said. Don't mess about shoving buttons. Shove on the levers and ease back on the stick. QED. Basic training. Oh, and a good idea to make sure you are actually climbing away before puttIng the Dunlops back to bed. ~X(
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