Water skiing

[Boac]

Some of you may be aware of an 'incident' where a Westjet 737 got very close to the water on approach to St Maarten earlier in the month. There is plenty of video of the 'whoops' and the go-round but this video from inside set the hairs on the back of my neck tingling. It looks low!

[flynverted]

Thanks, BOAC, I've not seen that particular video.

[Cacophonix]

A hand flown approach that went wrong? As for the person flying the approach, did he/she miss the 4 reds on the PAPI's or did the crew become fixated and bamboozled by the calm water and totally lose their vertical perspective until the tired voice of the GPWS (or should that be WPWS) intoned its warning knell?

Tea and no rum babas for the crew on the island when they were interviewed later about the approach I am sure.

Caco

[Cacophonix]

Tea and no rum babas for the crew on the island when they were interviewed later about the approach I am sure.

In fact initially it appears that WestJet were apt deny that an incident had occurred stating that the aircraft never came closer than 500 feet to the water (if were are to believe these reports)...

http://christinenegroni.com/westjet-den ... t-maarten/

Caco

[ExSp33db1rd]

“When this plane came out of the cloud, I was so shocked,” she said. “The surprising thing was he was lower than me. Normally they pass at my height or slightly above. For once I actually thought he was going to crash into the ocean.

”

In the early days of the Meteor, a pier master on the South Coast - Eastbourne ? - complained about a low flying Meteor and was eventually directed to RAF West Malling (?) where the jet was presumably based. No problem, said the RAF Duty Officer, the pilot was undergoing low level training. Yes, replied the Pier Master, but I was on the end of the pier and he was below me - upside down.

During my stint at Prestwick converting to the 747, ATC were contacted by a Cessna pilot off one of the Western Isles, who said that there was a 747 at low level, was it in trouble ? Not to our knowledge replied ATC. OK, said the Cessna, but I'm only at 400 ft and he's below me. The crew were enjoying the view.

[izod tester]

When I saw the thread title I thought it would be about this:

[Cacophonix]

When I saw the thread title I thought it would be about this:

Scully Levin et al. When I saw them do this on the Klipdrift Dam in 2006 I thought they were mad but some ten years later they are still doing it and no Harvards have been sunk to my knowledge.

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROKv87GjDWU[/bbvideo]

The madness continues elsewhere too it appears. Good video with an excellent sound track as well! Enjoy.

[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAEGPVcvhU[/bbvideo]

Caco

[Rwy in Sight]

Excellent skills on behalf of the pilot. Just thinking how many hours does he have under his belt!

[Cacophonix]

until the tired voice of the GPWS (or should that be WPWS) intoned its warning knell?

As the aircraft was in the landing config. with correct flap (as it appears on the video anyway) they should have got the aural 500 feet confirmation anyway and possibly a GLIDESLOPE alert and warning as well.

Caco

[Cacophonix]

until the tired voice of the GPWS (or should that be WPWS) intoned its warning knell?

As the aircraft was in the landing config. with correct flap (as it appears on the video anyway) they should have got the aural 500 feet confirmation anyway and possibly a GLIDESLOPE alert and warning as well.

Caco

PS - Looking at Pooleys I note there is no ILS at SXM although the GPWS should still have given a warning. It looks like the 737 involved in this incident broke cloud for a VFR approach in rain. It will be interesting to hear the results of any investigation of this incident if such a thing ever occurs.

On a more amusing note I note my debate with myself follows the same form as many debates at TOP where one piece of conjecture is refuted by facts and the original premise is demolished. The fact that I am doing this to myself only goes to show how far gone as a nerd one has to be to continue these debates whatever the case!

Perhaps to keep totally true to form I should denigrate myself and then highlight how much better my own perception of the same problem is in the following post (in such a course lies true madness known as controlled flight into trauma!)

[Cacophonix]

For those who are interested in incidents where the GPWS (or TAWS to be precise) saved the day, this paper makes very interesting reading. Not surprisingly , most of the incidents noted were non precision approaches like the one noted in the video above...

http://www.icao.int/safety/fsix/Library ... %20add.pdf

Caco

[Alisoncc]

Posting this so's Caco doesn't feel too lonely here. Water skiing in Dubai creek circa 1965.

WaterSkiDubai.jpg (39.34 KiB) Viewed 482 times

[Boac]

I don't think EGPWS would have triggered - the 737 had a 'terrain floor' function which gradually reduced the lower limit as the runway was approached (so you could land!!) Certainly should have had rad alt height callouts.

[Cacophonix]

Posting this so's Caco doesn't feel too lonely here. Water skiing in Dubai creek circa 1965.

Three young villains enjoying the sun, sea and the RAF I guess? You make me feel very young, I was a cherubic 3 year old and still the apple of my mother's eye when that photo was taken Alison!

I don't think EGPWS would have triggered - the 737 had a 'terrain floor' function which gradually reduced the lower limit as the runway was approached (so you could land!!)

Yes point taken.

I was wondering (or wandering ever closer to the surface of the sea) about some of the EGWPS kit with terrain maps that allow you to set up the planned vertical descent profile and allow call outs at specific altitudes. You know the kind of thing that is designed to make FO's redundant! I guess the fact that these guys nearly augured in implies that no such kit or descent profile or approach briefing or plan was to hand. Probably fixated on the tangas on the beach

Caco

[Boac]

TSB Canada have now produced their 'report'. The aircraft descended as low as 40' above the water 0.3nm from the runway. The crew only reacted when the EGPWS told them they were about to crash. Both Westjet and TSB Canada appear to be trying to brush this off when it was a near major accident. One would have hoped that the experience of the pilots, 14,000hrs Captain and 12,500 F/O, would have prevented such a disaster. As far as one can see, everyone is happy that they tinker with some sort of 'new approach' (presumably based on Magenta lines) and have a jolly chat about it once a year at crew renewal time. I think the crew should have been severely disciplined for
a) Doing it
b) Not reporting it adequately (what DID they tell the company?)

Just take this extract from the report:
"The occurrence of a moderate to heavy rain shower, after the aircraft crossed the missed approach point, led to a significant reduction in visibility. The low-intensity setting of the runway lights and precision approach path indicator lights limited the visual references that were available to the crew to properly identify the runway.

So, we hit a heavy rain shower below MDA (or inside MAP), lose the runway visually, and dive towards the water? Ah! Nice one.

[Seenenough]

The water skiing Harvards caused quite a stir in SA when it happened.

Bottom line of it is that although it makes for a spectacular photograph,such flying is outside of flying regulations and it sets a very bad precedent which could induce a "week-end warrior "to see if his aircraft is capable of the same.

But as with many things the Sky Gods who fly in SA seem to write their own rule book.

[Boac]

This part of the TSB report is quite amazing.

"At 63 feet above ground level (AGL), the flight crew unexpectedly received an EGPWS aural alert of “TOO LOW, TERRAIN,” which caused them to readjust their degraded situational awareness. On receipt of the aural alert, the crew carried out a “positive visual verification that no obstacle or terrain hazard exists” (as per both the aircraft manufacturer’s and operator’s recommendations for EGPWS alert response in daylight VMC), before deciding on a course of action."

Are you aviation loving folk NOT impressed by that? "I say, Rodney, that's a bit low old chap - wait a mo while I re-adjust my situational awareness"

AND
"Rodney - let's just make sure we are not in danger - is that the sea just below our wheels?!


I really have no confidence in Canadian aviation not the supervision of such. Bunch of cowboys, all.

The MDA is 700' (770 with no GNSS).