Piper Malibu missing north of Alderney!

[AtomKraft]

I'm not accusing the RAF pilots of anything, except of what they did. Or would you say they did a great job?
This guy definitely came unstuck, and sure it was largely his own fault, but that's not an excuse to make cheap jibes at the expense of a dead man.
Who knows what really took place, in either accident?
Not me or you, for sure.

[Pontius Navigator]

I know several fatal accidents that were definitely pilot error but while I would argue this face to face I would not do so in writing as you never know who might read it - wife, children or other relatives.

Tuppence.

[Capetonian]

The reality is that almost all accidents are down to human error or misjudgement, and it's rarely a single decision or act, it's a sequence. Foolish, greedy and irresponsible as he may have been, he neither wished nor expected to die, nor to be responsible for the death of another person.

Dave Ibbotson was a husband, a father, and a son, and as was pointed out to me earlier today in a private message from one of our fellows on this forum, one who is a valued friend, it is sad that his body has not been recovered.

I do not wish to get into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of this, but I would point out that there is a crowdfunding page and here is the URL :
https://www.gofundme.com/david-ibbotson ... g-him-home

[Ex-Ascot]

I'm not accusing the RAF pilots of anything, except of what they did. Or would you say they did a great job?
This guy definitely came unstuck, and sure it was largely his own fault, but that's not an excuse to make cheap jibes at the expense of a dead man.
Who knows what really took place, in either accident?
Not me or you, for sure.

Atom the Royal Air Force pilots were completely exonerated, please read the report.

Regarding this accident, yes I agree Cape. We will never know but!

Seems to be a nice guy but it was all illegal and well beyond his capabilities. He should not have done it.

Also how are they going to spend this search money? The chap is bobbing in the ogin. He will drift ashore somewhere no need to invest dosh in finding him. A dog walker will.

[Pontius Navigator]

"Also how are they going to spend this search money? The chap is bobbing in the ogin. He will drift ashore somewhere no need to invest dosh in finding him. A dog walker will."

And who will they pay?

[Ex-Ascot]

"Also how are they going to spend this search money? The chap is bobbing in the ogin. He will drift ashore somewhere no need to invest dosh in finding him. A dog walker will."

And who will they pay?

The pet shop for 5 years supply of Winalot.

Seriously though what is happening to the company who arranged this flight?

[Pontius Navigator]

Seriously though what is happening to the company who arranged this flight?

Wound up PDQ maybe.

On a lighter note, one Nov 5th, took our black dog for a walk when things got quiet. Now she was very nervous of other dogs and quite aggressive however I suddenly realised she was behaving differently and was making a fuss of a much larger chocolate Lab that had escaped and running free.

We took him home and the following morning I found a lost notice and called the owners who offered a reward. I said it was the dog, how about a bag of gravey bones.

Next day that came round with a big bunch of flowers. Dog not impressed.

[boing]

The "no go" part of the "go/no go" decision is probably the most difficult routine choice that you make in professional aviation. Peoples' vacation plans will be disrupted, the people travelling to see Grandma who has just been admitted to hospital may be too late, a business man will miss a critical meeting or a professor may miss a seminar as a speaker. The company you work for is going to be quietly upset and with a bottom-fishing operation the no go decision could cost you your job. A passenger will rush up to you with a cell-phone virtually screaming that the weather here is fine and he just phoned his wife in San Francisco and the weather there is fine also - why can't you fly, is this some sort of stupid industrial action?

And all the time the whole logic of the decision lives in your head only. You know the aircraft, you know the route, you know how much traffic there is at this time of day, you know the weather you are likely to meet because you have seen it before - and all these factors combine to produce the word "no".

The "no" is really the product of balancing what you have to lose against what you have to gain. As a professional this breaks down to whether you want injured passengers or a damaged aircraft versus an on-time arrival. No decision. Now, our friend in the Malibu could have had no pressure for an on-time arrival unless he built it himself. He had no one behind the scenes pushing him. He should have known deep down that he did not have the skill and equipment to press the "go" button. Yet he said "go" in any case.

Ex may have been rather intemperate in his reply but I certainly see the exasperation behind his position. A man with everything to lose and nothing to gain chose to meet the Elephant.

.

[OFSO]

When to turn back (eg) ? When I was taking my sailing qualifications, I had it rammed into me that the time to put a reef in the sail is the first moment the thought comes into your mind. No 'lets see how it goes' and no 'maybe in a while.' The answer to 'should we reef ?' is always yes. Relevant to flying ?

[Pontius Navigator]

OFSO, indeed.

My first time in icing was an Anson. I was too inexperienced to know the risks and appreciate the dangers. Ice picked up on the props and crashed and banged as it hit the fuselage. In reality we should probably never have got anywhere near that.

[G-CPTN]

Considering the injuries to the footballer, I presume that he wasn't wearing a seatbelt (which might just have saved his life - we'd need to see the wreck).
The absence of the pilot's body might suggest that he 'escaped' - though subsequently drowned?

All speculation I concede.

[Flintstone]

Seriously though what is happening to the company who arranged this flight?

I seem to recall reading elsewhere that 'someone', perhaps associated with the football club (don't quote me) asked someone else to arrange the flight with the request that a particular pilot be given the job. Somehow the job was passed to on Mr Ibbotson instead. Thsi flight followed one a day or two before but that was conducted in a small jet, I've no idea why this one moved 'downmarket', perhaps at the behest of whoever was paying?

The departure time was delayed from 0900 to the evening. Setting aside the whole thing about it being illegal for a PPL to be flying charter in the first place (likewise the aircraft) this might be how he found himself making the choice to fly at night in **** weather.

As others have already said he should not have been there in the first place. A conversation (another time and place maybe) on these so-called 'grey charters' in the UK market might be a real eye-opener for some.

[Cacophonix]

Mr Ibbotson was handed the job when Mr Henderson, declined, or was unable to undertake the flight. Mr Ibbotson expected, it seems, a daylight departure at 09:00 UTC but this was delayed to the evening and so what might have been a relatively straightforward VFR flight morphed into something he was not qualified to undertake. He was under considerable financial pressure at home it seems. That he shouldn't have flown is obvious, that he did was tragic and a bad decision and my heart goes out to his family and that of the passenger. We must remember though that Mr Ibbotson was somebody's father and husband and we should grant them the grace to grieve in peace as well without the easy judgements that can be made here.

I see that his family are crowd funding a search for his body. A sad, and probably futile quest, but I understand why they are attempting this.

Caco

[Ex-Ascot]

Caco:

....so what might have been a relatively straightforward VFR flight morphed into something he was not qualified to undertake.

Sorry Caco but it didn't 'morph' into something he wasn't qualified to do. He wasn't qualified for gain or rewards in the first place even VFR in daytime following ships and railways.

Why should pilots remortgage their homes and work night shifts in coal mines to pay for a CPL or ATPL when unqualified pilots step in and steal the business from them illegally? Don't care how broke he was, it was illegal. 'Sorry my Lord but I robbed the bank and killed someone because I was broke'.

Yes of course we feel sorry for both families as two people died. But, due to an illegal act.

Obviously there has to be more control by the CAA over this. For example is this hire company going to be charged?

[Pontius Navigator]

Think about how Ibbitson might have been paid.

Now let us assume that the original pilot was qualified to fly passengers for profit. In that case the charter was perfectly legal.

Now for whatever reason the contracted pilot decides to get Ibbotson to take the trip. That charter was legal only now the pilot is not qualified. Who broke the law? I suggest it was the original organization and not Ibbotson who was culpable.

Was Ibbotson flying for reward or was he just given personal out of pocket expenses with the balance of the fare going directly to the charter company.

This contrasts with the crash out of Barton where the contracting pilot was a PPL.

Not quite as clear cut now is it?

[Ex-Ascot]

PN it has been suggested that he took the job as he had financial difficulties so he was not going to do anything challenging just for peanuts.

At the end of the day the charter company is liable whatever the situation. They hired an unqualified pilot. However Ibbitson should have pointed out that he was not qualified and refused the job.

Ibbotson was only a PPL as well as the Barton idiot. But with Barton it was his own aircraft, a bit different.

[Pontius Navigator]

Was he hired directly by the charter company or a back hander from the proper pilot? It could be argued that he was not therefore hired. It could even mitigate any claim against the charter company if they could claim it was entirely due to the regular pilot.

Messy in the extreme.

[Capetonian]

Presumably a flight plan was filed. Doesn't the pilot's name form part of that flight plan, and then if the pilot is substituted, the flight plan has to be re-filed or amended? I don't know, I'm asking.

[Ex-Ascot]

Good point PN. But following on from that as mentioned by Cape the pilot's name has to be on the flight plan. This would normally be filed by the air charter company operations but not necessarily. Depends on the set up. Here the charter pilots file them with the CAAB at the office at the airport before they depart.

They changed the time of departure so one would assume that they would have just filed a new flight plan. IF they filed a flight plan for the original departure time.

I think, and only think, that an original flight plan was never filed. This was a flexible charter. Do we know why they delayed?

IF I am correct Ibbotson should be on the flight plan. It will be there for all to see.

The other question is did the company check his licence? March into a small charter setup ops, four gold bars a peaked hat and nav bag and say I'm the replacement pilot. Ops clerk is not going to question it. How many cases have we had of pilots flying passenger jets with no licence at all?

[Pontius Navigator]

Regarding names on flight plans, not always AFAIK. In one case where I reported a pilot for low flying the CAA was able to identify the aircraft and owner, the departure airfield, and the owner's whereabouts at the time of the incidence. They were not able to identify the pilot such that they could prosecute.

In the CA48 (?) maybe a squiggle. As for refiling on name change I don't think that is necessary. Just Op sends out a delay and subsequent departure. I know on one transatlantic the US would not accept a hand written submission. After we drafted it a flight plan was duly typed up and submitted. Unfortunately it was not our route and we did not have a copy of the plan submitted!