Piper Malibu missing north of Alderney!

[Ex-Ascot]

Yes PN agree with you totally. With a hand written flight plans no one knew where the hell I was going cos no one could read my writing. It should have the PiC's name on it though. Yes even a squiggle. Then of course, as soon as you are airborne you can ask to change it completely. Not your name of course.

We used to often file for a guaranteed destination airport on recces for refuel then as we got closer and found a nearer small VFR airfield clear dive into there and get to the pub at destination earlier. Greenland with Narsarsuaq was a classic.

[Cacophonix]

Caco:

....so what might have been a relatively straightforward VFR flight morphed into something he was not qualified to undertake.

Sorry Caco but it didn't 'morph' into something he wasn't qualified to do. He wasn't qualified for gain or rewards in the first place even VFR in daytime following ships and railways.

Why should pilots remortgage their homes and work night shifts in coal mines to pay for a CPL or ATPL when unqualified pilots step in and steal the business from them illegally? Don't care how broke he was, it was illegal. 'Sorry my Lord but I robbed the bank and killed someone because I was broke'.

Yes of course we feel sorry for both families as two people died. But, due to an illegal act.

Obviously there has to be more control by the CAA over this. For example is this hire company going to be charged?

Ex-A I remortgaged my house and lost my first wife in the pursuit of flight. I don't know the full story about this guy. If you do then please elucidate otherwise let's let the AAIB and CAA pontificate.

Caco

[Flintstone]

Regardless of who was going to perform this flight and who eventually did if it was a US reg aircraft and US licenced pilots wouldn't this be classed as cabotage?

I seem to recall that US operators (I assume that applies here) are not allowed to operate intra-Europe passenger flights. They can 'bounce' within the EU from their first point of landing from the US to one other EU destination only (for tech stops I assume) or operate within Europe with freight only.

From here: http://www.baca.org.uk/caution-with-5th ... e-flights/

"Generally speaking, in a European context, without permission a NON-European operator cannot operate commercially (i.e. pick up/drop off passengers) within Europe or between any European member country and another country other than their own.

In the same way a non-US registered aircraft cannot pickup/drop off passengers internally in the USA.

There are exceptions to this general rule, for instance passengers travelling on through flights can transit with stopovers through multiple countries, however each country seems to have its own interpretation of the rules for this type of flight!

The USA has always been diligent and unswerving in its application of these rules, even applying them to Diplomatic Charter flights. Commercial European carriers are not allowed to pick or drop off any passenger on an internal sector in the USA unless they are part of a through flight. Conversely it is difficult to police the similar situation in Europe due to the number of countries in the EU with differing Customs standards and hence the apparent ease with which some N registered aircraft conduct illegal charter within the area." (My bold).

If this is up to date info and the aircraft qualifies as 'a US operator' then it shouldn't have been happening in the first place.

(Happy to be corrected, too tired to dig too deeply).

[Undried Plum]

If this is up to date info and the aircraft qualifies as 'a US operator' then it shouldn't have been happening in the first place.

I don't think any part of the operation qualified as an "operation". Not commercially anyway.

That's the problem, right there. Any commercial operation, properly operating under a hard-earned AOC would have had at least two layers of supervision which would have precluded a plumber from flying on a PPL; without an IR; without a Night Rating.

I'd like to think that the CAA would have taken a good hard look at an Ops Manual on an AOC which would have encouraged or enabled a long overwater flight in a piston single which avoidably chose to fly in icing conditions which could easily have been overflown in a pressurised aircraft.

I don't think there was any such Ops Manual, nor any such AOC.

I think that that lack was the primary cause of the crash.

[Ex-Ascot]

If this is up to date info and the aircraft qualifies as 'a US operator' then it shouldn't have been happening in the first place.

I don't think any part of the operation qualified as an "operation". Not commercially anyway.

That's the problem, right there. Any commercial operation, properly operating under a hard-earned AOC would have had at least two layers of supervision which would have precluded a plumber from flying on a PPL; without an IR; without a Night Rating.

I'd like to think that the CAA would have taken a good hard look at an Ops Manual on an AOC which would have encouraged or enabled a long overwater flight in a piston single which avoidably chose to fly in icing conditions which could easily have been overflown in a pressurised aircraft.

I don't think there was any such Ops Manual, nor any such AOC.

I think that that lack was the primary cause of the crash.

I think that it is presurised: https://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pist ... ne-new-day But no idea what the ceiling is or the tops on the day. I think the C206 was 18,000' maybe about the same? Edit, if I have the right type it is 25,000'

Caco I was just saying that it is said that he was in financial difficulties so unlikely to do this flight just for the fun of it. But, taking money away from a hard earned CPL or ATPL,

[Ex-Ascot]

Just had a thought which Caco could probably answer. Wouldn't 25,000' on his route put him into controlled airspace? Can you fly in controlled airspace without an IR? Well I mean airways. Can't remember cos never tried.

[Flintstone]

No, you can't. Although in this case the pilot had already broken so many rules I'm surprised that one was left unmolested.

[Undried Plum]

no idea what the ceiling is or the tops on the day.

Somebody over on t'other place was flying the Channel Islands that evening and said that the tops were around 6,500' and that the freezing rain within the cloud was a bit evil.

If the plumber only held an IMC Rating (IR(R)), he would not have been able to use Class A airspace, so I guess that's why he didn't just pop up to the severe clear levels and fly more safely.

It's yet another reason why the plumber should not have been flying there/then, quite apart from the fact that he should not have been playing at being an air taxi pilot at all.

[Pontius Navigator]

There is one country where the upper air is 195 and I have a sneaky idea it is France.

My memory of 30 years ago was right.

https://www.ivao.fr/en/pages/pilots/rules#sector_h2_2

Looking at the CA48 rules for international flights, the CA48 must be submitted but the PIC info is not transmitted. Now, suppose a FP was filed for a morning departure it can be amended by Change Message for a later one. There does not appear to be a requirement to update non-transmitted info.

Now, speculating, suppose the original PIC decided he was out of time for the later flight and got a stand in, the original name may not be updated.

[1DC]

If anyone wishes to see it a simulation of the flight has been commissioned by the Grimsby Evening Telegraph. It can be found on grimsbytelegraph.co.uk.
It is of local interest because the Pilot originally came from Grimsby..

[Ex-Ascot]

See they buried the poor (well, rich actually) kicker of leather yesterday. Sorry but I still do not have any sympathy for the pilot. He killed them both through incompetence. There is little doubt of this.

You get in a professional to do a professional job. Can't see Cardiff paying 15 million for me to kick a ball around. They got in a professional. No difference.

[Cacophonix]

Just had a thought which Caco could probably answer. Wouldn't 25,000' on his route put him into controlled airspace? Can you fly in controlled airspace without an IR? Well I mean airways. Can't remember cos never tried.

No class A and no airways on IR/R Ex-Ascot!

Having boxed himself in so deep he could, I suppose have declared an emergency and requested immediate climb out of the icing situation. He shouldn't have been there is the sad truth. A 180 at the first sign of icing might have sufficed. A litany of transgressions and mistakes led to tragedy unfortunately.


Caco

[Ex-Ascot]

Just had a thought which Caco could probably answer. Wouldn't 25,000' on his route put him into controlled airspace? Can you fly in controlled airspace without an IR? Well I mean airways. Can't remember cos never tried.

No class A and no airways on IR/R Ex-Ascot!

Caco

OK thanks Caco. Never been in the position of not having an IR apart from a short time as a PPL so couldn't remember. As a PPL I would never lose sight of base in case I got lost. Mind you they made me do it (idiots) for my final qualifying nav exercise. And, of course I got lost. Lakenheath gave me radar vectors home to Cambridge after I had wandered into their airspace. Jolly helpful fellows.

[Cacophonix]

Just had a thought which Caco could probably answer. Wouldn't 25,000' on his route put him into controlled airspace? Can you fly in controlled airspace without an IR? Well I mean airways. Can't remember cos never tried.

No class A and no airways on IR/R Ex-Ascot!

Caco

OK thanks Caco. Never been in the position of not having an IR apart from a short time as a PPL so couldn't remember. As a PPL I would never lose sight of base in case I got lost. Mind you they made me do it for my final qualifying nav exercise. And, of course I got lost. Lakenheath gave me radar vectors home to Cambridge after I had wandered into their airspace. Jolly helpful fellows.

ATC are generally very helpful and if you fess up to problems early on they will go out of their way to help you out. De minimus this guy should have been flying on an EIR, US/IR or a full EASA IR and even then he shouldn't have flown the Malibu into known icing conditions.

It was a night for a beer and bed.

Caco

[Ex-Ascot]

ATC are generally very helpful

Well, she is a bloody good cook.

[Cacophonix]

ATC are generally very helpful

Well, she is a bloody good cook.

An instructor of my acquaintance had a Lycoming throw a pot and as the spam can sank towards the green sod, the ATC guy was heard to offer any assistance he could to which the hogger at the yoke was heard to say "a large ham and pineapple pizza would be nice".

He landed successfully in a field and the re-engined hairycraft flown out two days later.

Caco

[Ex-Ascot]

Cooking aside the nursing sister ATCO thing was a bit complicated. 'Clear land 08, wind 080 degs 10 knots, how is your gout? That was not in the landing check list.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex-Ascot, the putative squeeze of a friend, Vulcan, VC10, QFI, Airbus was doing a PPL off her own bat. She was telling us of her solo navex from London Oxford oddly enough also up the Cambridge. A 25 degree track error was the result. She passed, we were 'oriffied.

I recall one trip, 35,000 over East Anglia after some illicit aeros, pilot having told me just to relax then said "where's base?'

Fortunately there were 5 airfields below so one of them had to be base. Easy

[Flintstone]

De minimus this guy should have been flying on an EIR, US/IR or a full EASA IR and even then he shouldn't have flown the Malibu into known icing conditions.

It was a night for a beer and bed.

Caco

As my old (ex-RAAF) CFI once said to me "When lost in IMC the amateur descends, the professional climbs and one of them lives to tell the tale".

[Ex-Ascot]

De minimus this guy should have been flying on an EIR, US/IR or a full EASA IR and even then he shouldn't have flown the Malibu into known icing conditions.

It was a night for a beer and bed.

Caco

As my old (ex-RAAF) CFI once said to me "When lost in IMC the amateur descends, the professional climbs and one of them lives to tell the tale".

Absolutely, apart from meeting terra firma or the ogin, in this case, you can't get radar vectors at 500'.