Court for pilot of Piper Cherokee which crashed on take off from Barton

[Ibbie]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... d-15785933

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

At least he didn't kill himself and his passengers.

How much of this sort of illegal flying actually goes on? And maybe the CAA should be doing something to stop it.

[Ex-Ascot]

Unlike the Shoreham accident this guy should be locked up.

See one of the charges is flying without the aircraft flight manual. Well that would have made them even more overweight. They may have only stayed airborne for 4 mins instead of 5.

I used to fly out of Barton with Lancashire Aero Club. It was a friendly little place. They had to move about ten years ago though due to some disagreement with the owners of the strip. Oldest Aero Club in the UK.

[om15]

I'm a bit puzzled as to why the Instructor and fire crew were concerned enough to prepare for the crash but didn't actually do anything to prevent the guy from taking off. I have no idea if the airfield has a tower, but he must have been given clearance from someone. Couldn't the Instructor contact the tower giving reasons why clearance should be denied?

With all on board, Mr Murgatroyd performed a practice take-off run, to check how well the aircraft could accelerate on the runway.
A flying instructor watching on said the front wheel of the aircraft 'showed no sign of lifting off the ground'.
The pilot then turned around to perform another practice take off, and acceleration was said to be 'sluggish'.
This time the aircraft took off, flying in the opposite direction to the Barton Bridge.
Mr Blackshaw said: "Such was the concern of the fire crew who were there, they put on their protective firefighting kit in advance."
The flying instructor told another onlooker 'he's going for it'.

[Ex-Ascot]

Well, strictly speaking it was his aircraft the runway was clear the airspace was clear so all ATC could have done was say they had advice that he was below performance limits. My resident ATCO agrees. The performance limits of an aircraft are not an ATC issue.

[om15]

It's very hazy and I wasn't personally involved, but I recall years ago an aircraft came of maintenance, was accepted by the crew and taxied out, someone came across a lump on a rack that should have been bolted on, quick phone call to the tower and it came back.

You're right, this bloke should go to jail, if only to prevent it happening again.

[Boac]

All ATC can do is prepare the crash wagons, which they did, I think. If there was a controller I bet his/her hand was hovering over the button.

[Ex-Ascot]

All ATC can do is prepare the crash wagons, which they did, I think. If there was a controller I bet his/her hand was hovering over the button.

Like the Spanish exec jet landing at NHT hot and high. ATC could have said go around but pilot's decision. They hit the crash button even before it had touched down and subsequently went through the fence across the A40.

Edit, the ATCO who did the transcript for the inquiry reminds me that to be pedantic local could not tell him to go around because he had gone off approach (PAR) and never contacted tower.

[unifoxos]

I used to fly out of Barton with Lancashire Aero Club. It was a friendly little place. They had to move about ten years ago though due to some disagreement with the owners of the strip. Oldest Aero Club in the UK.

Me too, I loved it. We had a tower with a radio but it wasn't "ATC" then and I don't think it is now - I think it is still information only. So nothing the airfield could really do to prevent the take-off.

[CharlieOneSix]

...... I have no idea if the airfield has a tower, but he must have been given clearance from someone. Couldn't the Instructor contact the tower giving reasons why clearance should be denied?

Looking up Barton in the UK AIP it states that there is only an Aerodrome Flight Information Service (AFIS) at the airfield, callsign "Barton Information". So technically there is no formal Air Traffic Control there.

Edit: Ah, unifoxos posted the info whilst I had my head in the AIP!

[CremeEgg]

Overweight by 400lbs - that's 28 stone in old money or two average sized blokes. They were very very lucky not to be killed by this guys incompetence

[G-CPTN]

How come a '4-seater' aircraft was overweight with 4 person on board?
Did they have some particularly heavy baggage?

[Boac]

Fuel?

[CremeEgg]

One wonders what experience the pilot had flying in (according to the article referenced) poor weather. Also any experience of landing at Barra on the sand - quite a few gotcha's to negotiate. Time to look up the AAIB report - assuming its been published yet.

[ExSp33db1rd]

How come a '4-seater' aircraft was overweight with 4 person on board?
Did they have some particularly heavy baggage?

Combination of full tanks and 4 people perhaps, even without baggage ?

It is not generally known that the average Spam Can, 172, Cherokee 140 and the like, often can't fill all available seats and fill the tanks. Our Coastguard Unit got rid of a Cherokee for that reason, and replaced it with a Cessna 182, which can, just, providing that the pax/observers are within normal Body Mass Index limits, once they start admitting over 90 Kgs, we have to get the scales and calculators out and decide if we want extra pairs of eyes or a long search - and ... there is a consideration of, maybe, having to make an immediate return to the airfield for some reason, and remembering not to attempt a Go Around from short final approach if 40 flap have been selected, even after a "legal" take off weight.

Many traps for the unwary, 'ye canna be tooo carrrefulll

[Ex-Ascot]

As Speedy says. We have the same problem here with the 172s, Also they were bird watchers, add significant camera equipment.

Mind you here our biggest problem is the WAT limit. You are pushing it with a 172 with four people and fuel just for a one hour scenic flight.

[unifoxos]

It is not generally known that the average Spam Can, 172, Cherokee 140 and the like, often can't fill all available seats and fill the tanks.

It was one of the first things drummed into me when I learned to fly; and I particularly remember another student at the same time had to learn in a 172 because, at 17 stone, he was too heavy for the 150's.

BTW call sign of the Barton tower in those days (late 70's) was "Barton Radio". It always amused me that, flying to Blackpool, their callsign was "Blackpool Tower".

[ExSp33db1rd]

Yeah ! At least we're operating at sea level, or near enough, and rarely much above 22 C (except recently, but back to normal now )

Taking off from Nairobi one night, it was cold, we wore our jackets. On start up the tower said the temp. was 28C. Long story, but on reaching the tower to investigate, the station manager and I saw a NR in heavy army greatcoat, balaclava and gloves, sat next to a regular wooden thermometer hanging on the wall over a 2-bar electric heater that he had plugged in to keep warm. That was the temperature he gave us, not the 10C showing on the instruments on the Ops. Desk. !

[Sisemen]

I remember one time when I offered a flight “for up to 3 pax” in a 172 in the Bush Fire Brigade Christmas Draw. Bugger me if the biggest, fattest woman in the Brigade didn’t win it. Fortunately her 2 companions were her 6 year old daughter and a very skinny mate (with big norks - for Slash!). Had a bit of embarrassment in a) asking her how much she weighed, and b) relegating her to the rear seat diagonally opposite me. The bird with big norks obviously sat next to me! Fortunately weight AND balance came within limits (with slightly less than full tanks) and everyone had a jolly good hour’s flying..

[Pontius Navigator]

Reminds me of Grenadan water taxi when a particular tourist got ready to board "you fat lady, you sit there, you don't move"