MH17

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Wodrick
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MH17

#1 Post by Wodrick » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:15 pm

Just wanted to say what a excellent press conference the Dutch have just put on ref the missile attack. A really good investigation. :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:
https://www.wunderground.com/dashboard/pws/ITORRO10?cm_ven=localwx_pwsdash

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Re: MH17

#2 Post by 500N » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:59 pm

Was just reading the Daily Mail article on it, very comprehensive and great pictures / video.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -rule.html

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Re: MH17

#3 Post by probes » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:01 pm

What about the satellite photos the US said they have?

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Re: MH17

#4 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:39 pm

Good open source analysis by Bellingcat here
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and- ... -evidence/

They've strung together lots of photos, with analysis, to plot deployment, firing, and recovery to Russia. It's pretty conclusive.

p.s. some of the US satellite pics are included here.

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Re: MH17

#5 Post by Capetonian » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:41 pm

Just wanted to say what a excellent press conference the Dutch have just put on ref the missile attack.
As one might expect of the Dutch. I remember the dignified solemnity and restraint of the occasion when the coffins were landed after the event.

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Re: MH17

#6 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:56 am

It will be interesting to see what happens here; it would be good to get a positive result bringing the perpetrators to court. I suspect that the Russians will do all they can to be as obstructive as possible. Good luck to the authorities trying to bring about justice.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... style-case
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Re: MH17

#7 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:44 am

The Dutch are going to prosecute unnamed suspects.

http://news.sky.com/story/mh17-suspects ... s-10937369
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Re: MH17

#8 Post by AtomKraft » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:15 pm

Desperately bad outcome. I had a look at a Buk launcher at an Airshow a few months ago. Those are large and very chunky looking missiles. The thought of one popping off near ones window is dreadful.

Certainly an incident, but hardly an accident.

These idiots were shooting at something, and they hit it.

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Re: MH17

#9 Post by Cacophonix » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:33 am


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Re: MH17

#10 Post by Boac » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:55 am


Capetonian

Re: MH17

#11 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:08 pm

Will the Russian and Ukrainian authorities comply and extradite them?

If they do, it won't really do much good for the bereaved families. One has to.wonder at the motivation for this slaughter of innocents.

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Re: MH17

#12 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:32 pm

Extradition of Russian citizens is forbidden under Russian Law.
As it is for their own citizens of those other pariah nations of France, Germany, Norway, Switzerland...... ;)))

In most cases, the accusations are addressed under the laws of their own country as if the crime had been committed within their own borders.

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Re: MH17

#13 Post by Capetonian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:19 pm

The three Russian suspects are believed to be living inside Russian territory and the Kremlin refuses to extradite its nationals. There is little prospect Girkin, Dubinskiy and Pulatov will appear in court when their trial begins on 9 March next year.

The Dutch chief prosecutor, Fred Westerbeke, said it was not clear how the court would tackle a trial in absentia, saying a “mechanism” had yet to be worked out. Kharchenko, the Ukrainian, is believed to be hiding in the rebel-controlled Donetsk region, beyond the reach of Dutch law, he said.

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Re: MH17

#14 Post by Boac » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:45 pm

Never-the-less it will restrict their movements somewhat.

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Re: MH17

#15 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:17 am

OK, so now can we please prosecute the murderers of the 290 victims aboard IR655?

Or do the lives of Moozlamics not matter?

Disgustingly, instead of being prosecuted, the Captain and Missile Officer and XO were given medals. Captain Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer". ~X(

Bush41 said "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are".

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Re: MH17

#16 Post by Boac » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:47 am

UP - you cannot easily prosecute heroes.

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Re: MH17

#17 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:15 am

There are a lot of parallels between MH17 and IR655.
Both would have not happened if airliners weren't flying over warzones, and in both cases some airlines had already stopped doing so even without international NOTAMs on the practice.
Looked at from the SAM commander on the scene's point of view, both shootdowns fitted the Rules of Engagement they were issued, with a bias towards aggressive action rather than further verification. In both cases, Governments were rewarding commanders who displayed aggression.
The responsibility therefore lies with the Government concerned, rather than the armed forces personnel involved. One notes the US paid compensation for IR655 without admitting liability. One must also question the wisdom of the airlines involved for flying over the warzones. Having accepted the responsibility internally, it follows that the Government would logically give medals out to those involved in the shootdown, since they were successfully (by the Rules of Engagement issued) carrying out Government policy in the approved Government manner. We should not be surprised if the Russians have done so also.

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Re: MH17

#18 Post by Boac » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:14 pm

both shootdowns fitted the Rules of Engagement they were issued,
- not as I understand it. I believe the parameters were 5nm and less than 2000', and certainly not regarding an aircraft INSIDE Iranian airspace, squawking correctly and CLIMBING on a notified civilian airway., added to which the USS was inside Iranian territorial waters as well. No, a major cock-up by trigger-happy American navy crew for which they were rewarded. At least the USA apologised for it.

This from Wiki
"Commander David Carlson, commanding officer of USS Sides, the warship stationed nearest to Vincennes at the time of the incident, is reported to have said that the destruction of the aircraft "marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago"."

We basically had a trigger-happy John Wayne character who was rewarded for his mistakes.

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Re: MH17

#19 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:59 pm

Yes, I read the wiki thing.
Here's the direct link to the official investigation.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a203577.pdf
You will always find fellow commanders who think others are being too aggressive, and others too timid. The award of medals would seem to indicate that Rogers was doing what his bosses wanted, whatever the best approach may have been. With having done both mudmoving and air defence, you will be aware that 5nm and 2,000' does not cover the typical attack profile for dive bombing, which is the preferred attack method for less experienced bomber pilots, as the F-14 pilots would have been. You will also be aware that NATO had assorted Rules of Engagement (RoE) parameters, especially during Transition To War, which would have led to large formations of what could only have been enemy bombers on a standard attack profile requiring visual ID, whilst single friendly aircraft limping home could have been shot BVR.

The RoE included quite a number of factors, of which the distance/altitude were one, and which did not match the most likely known threat. IR655 had not been identified as a civilian scheduled flight (for several reasons, detailed in wiki). It had failed to respond to 121.5 calls (which even ICAO said it should have), there was an Iranian P-3 MPA flying what was believed to be a targeting profile (a common precursor to a ship attack, e.g. as with the '12 Squadron Buccaneers' short film), the Iranian F-14s had forward deployed to Bandar Abbas (where IR655 took off from - it's a joint military/civilian airfield), and a US warship had warned off a threatening F-14 the day before. The Vincennes' helicopter had just been shot at, and the Vincennes was already engaged in a shooting surface battle with 13 Iranian gunboats. Plus Iran spends its entire time, as they do today, screaming 'Death to America'.

And, from the official investigation
As a result of the STARK incident, our commanders were given a revised set of ROE which clarified their authority to take positive protective measures when hostile intent was manifested. It was emphasized
that they did not have to be shot at before responding and that they have an unambiguous responsibility to protect their units and people.
Under those circumstances and especially after reviewing the details of the Stark incident, where the attacking aircraft was also outside the altitude/distance RoE, one can see why Rogers got a medal.

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Re: MH17

#20 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:15 am
There are a lot of parallels between MH17 and IR655.
Both would have not happened if airliners weren't flying over warzones, and in both cases some airlines had already stopped doing so even without international NOTAMs on the practice.
Bandar Abbas to Dubai airway M324 was not at all a "warzone", other than the fact that American military aggression against Iran posed a threat to peace in the region.

The Iraqis were only able to fly attack missions against Iranian oil-exporting tankers in the lower half of the Gulf with Saudi and American assistance and it seldom happened. They never ever attacked aircraft that far South-East. Never. They didn't have either the means, nor the opportunity, nor the motive to do so


"At least the USA apologised for it."

President Bush refused to apologise for the mass murder. The USN concocted a "report" that was just a pack of lies.

PA103 was a very direct consequence of IR655 and the bastards lied about that too. Another 270 victims, albeit semi-indirectly.

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