ET crash ADD NBO

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#241 Post by Boac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:55 am

Barking wrote:Hi BOAC, are you referring to posting # 42 on this thread? I
- no, sir - the elusive post was giving the same link I gave in my post, 'cos I couldn't find yours. :))

Does no-one have theories about the lack of 'events' outside Lion and ET? If caused by 'defective' vanes or software there would have been more.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#242 Post by Ex-Ascot » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:14 am

Boac wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:55 am
Barking wrote:Hi BOAC, are you referring to posting # 42 on this thread? I
- no, sir - the elusive post was giving the same link I gave in my post, 'cos I couldn't find yours. :))

Does no-one have theories about the lack of 'events' outside Lion and ET? If caused by 'defective' vanes or software there would have been more.
Well at least 5 in the USA: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/ ... 37-1266090

Must be more.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#243 Post by Slasher » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:26 am

The extra bloke must've been a real pilot. Only thing he should've told 'em was to turn around and go back to Bali and land as per the jammed stab procedure first, then proceed with all the WTF! questions once safe on the deck.

Maybe with Lie n Scare the whole crew would've been arseholed for turning around for something as piddling as a serious primary flight control problem, instead of limping back to main base as they did.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#244 Post by Boac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:32 am

Thanks, ex-A - all I had seen was Southwest saying 'never a problem'!

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#245 Post by barkingmad » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:41 pm

Hello again Boac, was it the link in my postin # 69 and the comments various which I found by scrolling on after the system description?

Page 4 of the postings on this topic.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#246 Post by Boac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:06 pm

Yes, Barking - Soixante-neuf it is. =))

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#247 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:34 pm

RAF 32 Sqn B Flt ; Twin Squirrels.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#248 Post by Alisoncc » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:48 pm

Justice Department issues subpoenas in criminal investigation of Boeing
New York (CNN) US Justice Department prosecutors have issued multiple subpoenas as part of an investigation into Boeing's Federal Aviation Administration certification and marketing of 737 Max planes, sources briefed on the matter told CNN.

The criminal investigation, which is in its early stages, began after the October 2018 crash of a 737 Max aircraft operated by Lion Air in Indonesia, the sources said. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao on Tuesday asked the agency's inspector general to investigate the Max certification.

Criminal investigators have sought information from Boeing on safety and certification procedures, including training manuals for pilots, along with how the company marketed the new aircraft, the sources said.

It's not yet clear what possible criminal laws could be at issue in the probe. Among the things the investigators are looking into is the process by which Boeing itself certified the plane as safe, and the data it presented the FAA about that self-certification, the sources said.

The FBI Seattle office and Justice Department's criminal division in Washington are leading the investigation.
https://us.cnn.com/2019/03/20/business/ ... index.html


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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#249 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:19 pm

I'll believe they are serious when I see the bastards doing the perp's walk.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#250 Post by Boac » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:04 pm

This guy has just popped up on my Twitter feed - he is obviously some sort of 'hot shot' but he gives a comprehensive explanation of the MCAS issue. I suggest you roll forward to around 7:50 if you don't want to listen to his 'CV'........... =))

Only problem is, as I understand it, he is WRONG about why MCAS is there (he talks about the pitch/power couple) and the thing which really throws me is that he claims MCAS activation drives the throttles to full power!! That is the first I have heard of it and I am VERY dubious about that statement. It would, if correct, however, partly explain why the LionAir and the ET accelerated so much. I cannot see any reason, however, for this function.

We wait and see what other crap falls out of these accidents.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#251 Post by fin » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:05 pm

In Japan, those responsible likely would be expect to kill themselves.

In China, they'd probably save the officials the trouble of killing themselves and do it for them.

In US, possibly, maybe, perhaps, some of the lower ranking officials will have their bonus cut. Or not.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#252 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 pm

In Britain the bastards would get a knighthood and a directorship of BAe and Carlyle and a partnership in one of the Auditors and Goldman Sachs etc..

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#253 Post by boing » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:09 pm

1. No software patch can compensate for the fact that the MCAS is a single channel device capable of making a critical flight command.
2. It will probably emerge that the greatest contribution to the accidents was the automatic reset capability of the system which permits cumulative nose down stabilser movements until elevator authority is exceeded. This is a typical software geek error, the team just did not understand why this would be a problem.


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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#254 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:25 pm

One cannot expect software guys to do this. It needs to be sorted out at the design spec level. It also needs to be discovered in testing. Both appear to be woeful, if not criminally so, with the MCAS.
To me, the fact that certification approval was transferred to Boeing on the MCAS, and that the amended increased authority of MCAS after flight testing was not communicated back to the FAA, are not failures of process. I think they were deliberate acts, done because senior bods at Boeing knew d@mn well that the 737 MAX should have failed Certification, and they used the above "errors" to hide that fact. I would be very interested in knowing who at the FAA decided to include and approve the MCAS authority transfer to Boeing.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#255 Post by boing » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:17 am

Fox

"One cannot expect software guys to do this." True but they are apparently being allowed to make these decisions based on the new philosophy that computers can do anything better and more cheaply than trained pilots and designers.

I have seen flight plan fuel dangerously mis-planned through assuming that computers were always right, I have seen equipment stupidly designed (thankfully only at the prototype level) because nobody bothered to consult the operators, I have seen simulators used to predict aircraft performance way outside the accepted aircraft design parameters as part of accident investigations.

Until somebody puts a brake on all of these engineer day dreams we are going to see more technically caused accidents. Hopefully, but unfortunately, the MAX accidents could be the wake-up call.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#256 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:36 am

A few years back I was in the cockpit waiting to load petrol to operate Gatwick-Deer Lake ETOPS ('max ramp weight' fuel needed for the route) when the cargo load increased, a new PLOG arrived, and the computer plan had reduced my required fuel to stay under max ramp............. it was, rather unsurprisingly, insufficient for the flight. Nice one.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#257 Post by Boac » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:02 am


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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#258 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:13 am

What are Garuda going to do with the one that they already have? Try and swap it for an older model? :D

^#(^ On a serious note, I suspect that more cancellations will rapidly follow this announcement.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#259 Post by barkingmad » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:14 am

Despite the Garuda order being in jeopardy there are and will be other airlines happy to operate a suitably debugged 'frame.
Who has forgotten the post-THY Ermenonville horror and the baggage door fiasco of falsified factory documentation?
DC10s continued to move SLF despite Sioux City and MD-11s continue to move freight despite the Swissair disaster.
Doubtless M O'Ls team are putting together a hard bargain to snap up the unwanted 'frames at knockdown prices.
As long as Joe Public can't discriminate between one wingletted wonderplane and another they will continue to shop for and enjoy the cheapest fare on the market.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#260 Post by Capetonian » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:18 am

Type: news-article
Boeing 737 to get new feature absent from Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashed planes - industry source
27 minutes agoPublished Date: 27 minutes ago

Boeing's 737 MAX aircraft will be outfitted with a warning light for malfunctions in the anti-stall system suspected in October's fatal crash in Indonesia, an industry source told AFP.

Known as a "disagree light," this safety feature, which had previously been optional, will become standard and is among the modifications the company will present to US authorities and clients in the coming days, the source said on condition of anonymity.

Neither the Lion Air aircraft which crashed in Indonesia, nor the Ethiopian Airlines jet which crashed this month, had such a warning light, the source said.


Modifications are in the final stages but Boeing wants to be certain this meets the expectations of regulators and customers, the person said.

Boeing offered no comment when contacted by Boeing.

READ: CEO of Boeing speaks out - what travellers should know about 737 MAX

The warning light will be activated if sensors transmit incorrect data to the plane's Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which is intended to detect and correct stalls by reducing the aircraft's pitch.

Preliminary results in the investigation into October's Lion Air crash in Indonesia indicate an "angle of attack" sensor, which feeds data to the MCAS, had malfunctioned.

But despite malfunctioning, the sensor continued transmitting data to the plane's onboard electronics, including the MCAS.

That system takes control of the aircraft, pointing its nose downward, even if the pilot resists, so long as the system is not deactivated, something the Lion Air crew did not know.

US and Ethiopian authorities have said this month's crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302 near Addis Ababa bore "similarities" to the Lion Air crash in October.

The Ethiopian Airlines crash left 157 people dead and led to the global grounding of 737 MAX aircraft.

A criminal investigation is currently underway in the United States, with authorities reportedly scrutinizing how the plane received safety certification from US aviation regulators.

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