ET crash ADD NBO

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#781 Post by Stoneboat » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:20 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:14 pm
Methinks this is Boeing blood in the water. I maintain my original opinion, which is that there's no chance the MAX will be back airborne till next year at the earliest, and this could drive Boeing under. And I think it should.
Boeing's problems began when the bean counters took over and moved the company from Seattle to Chicago. :D

How Boeing Tried To Kill A Great Airplane...

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#782 Post by Slasher » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:21 am

Good points about stinking beancounter vaginals taking control of the Boeing Company while brainwashing what used to be superb management and subsequently the once-outstanding designers.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#783 Post by Stoneboat » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:52 pm

Slash did the link in the email I sent work? Gary and Les and a couple of others got a 404 error.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#784 Post by Slasher » Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:30 am

Stoneboat wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:52 pm
No I got a 404 too.

Also forwarded that email to Cape as requested.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#785 Post by admin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:13 am

Checked the link. Seems okay, no missing bits in the URL.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#786 Post by Rwy in Sight » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:05 am

It worked for me as well.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#787 Post by barkingmad » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:17 am

“Daily Beast” article readable here oop north in UK.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#788 Post by Stoneboat » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:17 pm

admin wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:13 am
Checked the link. Seems okay, no missing bits in the URL.
Admin
I emailed the link to a dozen or so people, and some of them got a 404 error from the email link. The one here worked fine. Gremlins??? :D

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#789 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:13 pm

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/18/boeing- ... 7-max.html

CNBC reporting that:
Boeing had internal messages from 2016 which showed that MCAS was difficult to control, about which it did nothing and didn't tell the FAA, and..
They rediscovered these messages "some months ago" and didn't tell the FAA till now.

Both FAA and SouthWest pilots latching on to this.

Boeing CEO (but no longer Chairman) Muilenburg due to testify to the Senate Oct 29th. He looks as guilty as a puppy next to a pile of poo.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#790 Post by Alisoncc » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:03 am

A top Boeing pilot working on the 737 Max said in messages from 2016 that a new automated system known as MCAS was making the plane difficult to control in flight simulators. The messages suggest that Boeing officials working on the development of the best-selling jet knew of potential issues with the automated system years before the plane was involved in two deadly crashes.
Content of one of the text messages relating to testing on the sim:
Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:

I’m levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy

I’m like, WHAT?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:52 PM:

that’s what i saw on sim one, but on approach

I think thats wrong

Mark Forkner 6:52 PM:

granted, I suck at flying, but even this was egregious
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/busi ... sages.html
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#791 Post by compo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:08 am

Just as well capitalism, self correcting markets, etc. make such events impossible 8-|

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#792 Post by barkingmad » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:03 pm

compo wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:08 am
Just as well capitalism, self correcting markets, etc. make such events impossible 8-|
Well, yer all totally wrong!! The makers of the Max are committed etc etc;

https://www.boeing.com/company/about-bc ... afety.page. ^:)^

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#793 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:26 am

Alisoncc wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:03 am
A top Boeing pilot working on the 737 Max said in messages from 2016 that a new automated system known as MCAS was making the plane difficult to control in flight simulators. The messages suggest that Boeing officials working on the development of the best-selling jet knew of potential issues with the automated system years before the plane was involved in two deadly crashes.
It seems that Boeing are trying to obfuscate the issue by pointing to software calibration issues with the simulator. Don't these guys realise when it is time to stop digging?
On Sunday, Boeing said it has not been able to speak to Forkner directly about his understanding of the document.

“He has stated through his attorney that his comments reflected a reaction to a simulator program that was not functioning properly and that was still undergoing testing,” Boeing said.
“The simulator software used during the Nov. 15 session was still undergoing testing and qualification and had not been finalized,” Boeing added.

Reuters reported on Friday that the simulator had a number of software problems, citing a former Boeing test pilot who analyzed the transcript and who had direct knowledge of the flight simulator at the time.

Such calibration problems may have contributed in some way to Forkner’s observations and conclusions about MCAS’ behavior, the former pilot, and a second former Boeing engineering employee, Rick Ludtke, said.
Boeing expresses regret over ex-pilot's 737 MAX messages, faults simulator

Maybe it is time they started regretting that they released an unairworthy aircraft into service at time when even the aircraft's simulator was indicating issues or, at the very least, had not been properly calibrated!
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#794 Post by ian16th » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:36 am

From Aviation Week:
What Muilenburg’s Demotion Means for NMA, Rate Increases And More
By Michael Bruno

The world is supposed to notice when a major public corporation suddenly demotes its chairman—the head of the board of directors—particularly if that person has amassed as much power as Boeing CEO and President Dennis Muilenburg. In other words, the demotion is supposed to mean something.
For many shocked observers, Boeing’s late-Friday Oct. 11 announcement that Muilenburg became just another director on the board is a consequence of Boeing’s 737 MAX fiasco. It is that, but it is also so much more.
“The move Friday evening to announce a removal of the title of chair of the board of directors from an existing CEO is not something we have seen in our space previously,” UBS analyst Myles Walton and his team write. “The explanation of creating more bandwidth for Muilenburg as CEO to focus full-time on running the company as it works to return the 737 MAX to service is reasonable, but it is hard not to see additional implications.”
Voices have been rising inside the industry over the necessity for Boeing to move beyond Muilenburg due to a growing list of problems—the MAX chief among them. Other outstanding issues include 777X development, 787 production quality, KC-46A charges, the late Starliner and Space Launch System programs for NASA and the prolonged launch of the new midsize airplane (NMA).
Almost all who spoke with Aviation Week wanted to be off the record, if only because Boeing is the aerospace and defense sector’s 800-lb. gorilla. A few critical observers had come out just before the Oct. 11 announcement, including consultant Ernest Arvai of AirInsight, an aviation analysis firm based in Washington. But the truth is the idea has been publicly mulled since at least an April shareholder proposal that tried—and failed—to split the Boeing chairman and CEO roles. Regardless, now it is out in the open for all to consider.
“Some will view this as the first step in a two-step leadership shuffle, while others will see it as preempting additional change at the top,” says Credit Suisse analyst Rob Spingarn. Either outcome is “equally” possible, he adds.
In the near term, Muilenburg’s demotion is not expected to lead to big surprises, according to several observers. Although Muilenburg continues as CEO, president and a director, GE Aviation veteran David Calhoun, previously Boeing’s independent lead director, now serves as non-executive chairman.
Calhoun has been on the board for a decade. After Harry Stonecipher was fired in 2005, Calhoun was a contender for CEO along with Alan Mulally, James Alabugh and Jim McNerney, who ultimately got the job. His industry familiarity and the non-executive role of his chairmanship do not portend out-of-the-box moves. After spiking more than 2% in regular stock trading on the first workday after the announcement, Boeing’s stock returned to around $370 share by Oct. 15—about the same as the day before the announcement.
More interesting now is what Muilenburg’s comedown means for Boeing’s myriad strategic efforts. “Overall, with a division of leadership between the CEO and chairman, we’d expect decisions to be more deliberate and likely more risk-averse,” Walton’s team says. “That decision-making likely spans the operation, from production rates to launch of new aircraft. With or without the management change, the probability of launching the NMA as envisioned a year ago was getting less likely with the higher risk profile on the overall corporation—777X certification delays, 737 MAX return to service and a more uncertain certification process. However, following the change on [Oct. 11], we expect the program will largely be on ice and/or morphed into the next narrowbody program.”
There are additional issues on the back burner that now face different decision-makers and conditions, too. For instance, industry insiders have long surmised that Boeing’s big move into aftermarket services demands more acquisitions beyond KLX Aerospace if Boeing is going to reach the $50 billion annual revenue target Muilenburg identified. Any billion-dollar-plus deal—let alone multibillion-dollar deal—is due to receive even more scrutiny now. Likewise, Boeing’s moves into autonomous systems, urban air mobility and new-space markets, under the guidance of its HorizonX corporate venture capital and Boeing Next development departments, also might face stiffer proof-of-concept requirements.
So imagine what Boeing leadership faces now, with countless shareholders watching special charges rack up, taxpayers seeing key defense and space programs slip and lawmakers hosting related hearings. Boeing may be able to make things that go hypersonic, but its decision-making could look more like a Wright Flyer.
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#795 Post by Ibbie » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:47 am


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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#796 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:42 am

LionAir report out very soon. This from Reuters from a pre-briefing given to families :

"Reliance on a single angle-of-attack sensor made MCAS more vulnerable to failure, while the sensor on the plane that crashed had been miscalibrated during an earlier repair, according to the slides.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#797 Post by boing » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:21 pm

I think it's pretty clear what happened now. The unexplained factors are exactly why it happened, what instructions were given in the chain of command of Boeing that allowed a badly engineered system, where you had to pay extra to get the full failure warning system even, to be put into service. Who raised flags? Who overrode those flags? Was there ever a discussion where production cost and duration versus safety were discussed? The job now is not to assess corporate guilt, that is clear from the facts that have emerged. What we need now is to see true individual responsibility established and appropriate blame attached, hopefully with the results discouraging any more swashbuckling management.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#798 Post by Boac » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:26 pm

The clincher was the mis-aligned vane without which it is likely the whole thing would not have happened. We wait now for the Indonesian findings.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#799 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:54 pm

Never going to happen, Boing. If there was any likelihood of blame being correctly attributed and punished, none of the long chain of decisions that put such a sh!te system in the air would have happened. It is precisely the removal of such - through legal loopholes, regulator ineffectiveness, political influence, etc - which large companies have spent a long time ensuring. Then chuck in a cozy cartel system which leads to To Big To Fail, and even horrendous guilt results in a let-off.
There is no justice.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#800 Post by larsssnowpharter » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:06 pm

Agreed, Fox 3.

Any reasonable root cause or Why Tree analysis of these incidents would go way beyond a simple faulty piece of equipment (a simple causal factor) and, from what we know at the moment, look very closely at what appears to be, on the face of it, a dysfunctional relationship between Boeing and the certifiers.

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