ET crash ADD NBO

[boing]

Hate to add complication to the discussion but what the device really does is to motor the stabiliser depending on Angle of Attack information not the nose position in relation to the horizon. Yes, in most civilian airliner situations at low speed high angle of attack will also be nose high in relation to the horizon but the MCAS could also trigger in a banked attitude and theoretically with the aircraft upside down when it would push the nose up rather than down but, of course, the pilots would have more problems than Angle of Attack in that situation.

Hold that thought. I have just realised that in simulated approach wind shear training I have seen the aircraft partially inverted at low speed, I wonder what the MCAS would do in this circumstance.


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[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I think the average airline pilot these days is pretty much f#cked partially inverted at low speed whatever the magic boxes are doing. They don't do proper UP's in basic training any more.

[Capetonian]

https://citizen.co.za/news/south-africa ... -work/amp/

Interesting article from The Citizen.

[Slasher]

I think the average airline pilot these days is pretty much f#cked partially inverted at low speed whatever the magic boxes are doing.

Some of us weren't all that average mate, least in Scarebuses!

[barkingmad]

Cape, a very relevant and interesting summary of what is supposed to happen after an accident.

Does anybody know how M O'L, Ryanair and the Italian authorities were able to avoid this process following the hull loss and injuries at Rome Ciampino of a 738 due to attempted go-around following a double engine failure due to multiple birdstrike?

Or have I inadvertently just published the entire report whilst chomping breakfast?

[johngreen]

I think the report has just(!) been published and you can find it here...


http://www.aviation-accidents.net/ryana ... ht-fr4102/

[Boac]

The lawsuits start:
https://indianexpress.com/article/world ... h-5648096/

[barkingmad]

JohnG, many thanks for the Ryr 738 report!

10 years is a long time to wait for an EASA country to provide such info so I await with interest the sanctions to be imposed on Italy by this wonderful organisation who disparages UK aviation safety & regulation due to Brexit.

But hang on a minute, just received news of pack ice thickening in Hell so gotta rush!

[Slasher]

I think the report has just(!) been published and you can find it here...

That would've been a little bit of a tough call 7 secs from ldg, but if visibility through the forward windscreen(s) was/were clear it would've been better to just land and sort it out on the deck. Had a similar thing happen at 250ft at Clark in the 737 yonks ago but only the nose dome and Capt pitot were damaged. Donks were both ok surprisingly and a trail of bird guts splattered on the F/O's window. The WTF reaction was very quick however.

[ian16th]

Today's Bulletin

[Woody]

Latest update, I don’t have access to the WSJ.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47759966

[Boac]

According to that report, the a/c started pitching down at around 450'AGL. Now, MCAS supposedly does not work with flaps extended. 400' AGL is the lowest 'SOP' flap retraction height. A 737 (even at NBO) will climb several hundred feet as a minimum during flaps retraction.

Either these 'leaks' are horse-poo or there is a far greater problem with MCAS.

[barkingmad]

Airlines keeping safety training 'to an absolute minimum' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47655115

IMAGINE MY SURPRISE??!! Nothing to see here, move along. What's our share price today Scroggins?? Oh, dear we're going to have to downsize/outsource our safety department. They don't appear to have done very much recently. What's that, safety is no accident? Well we haven't had any recently!!

[Boac]

FAA reported to have sent Boeing 'back to the drawing board' on the MCAS fix - or at least to require 'more
work before release'.

[barkingmad]

FAA reported to have sent Boeing 'back to the drawing board' on the MCAS fix - or at least to require 'more
work before release'.

I wonder how many experienced pilots will be allowed near the drawing board complete with pencil in "armed" mode and permitted to shoot?

[ian16th]

An article about it.

[boing]

Basically an unspoken admission that they screwed up horribly on the first design and that the equally unsafe substitute that they promised would be available within days will now have to be reworked to meet the newly attentive FAA's requirement.

Although all the World knows the truth it still seems that Boeing is minimizing the original problem and it is still trying to convince everyone that their half-baked fixes will do the job. When will they get the idea that they should adopt the tried and true type of system that everyone knows should have been fitted in the first place.

It is fine to discuss the details like adjusting pitch authority etc. as though it is a simple solution to a mere technical problem but the cheapskate system did not simply cause technical difficulties, it killed around 400 people.

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[Boac]

Of great concern is the latest information coming out of the ET crash, from Reuters:

"The Journal report, citing unidentified people briefed on the matter, said the pilots had initially shut off the MCAS anti-stall system that was pushing the airplane’s nose down shortly after it took off from Addis Ababa.

The pilots then cranked a manual wheel in an attempt to stabilize the plane, the report said, but they eventually decided to restore power to the usual electric trim on their control yokes, likely because the manual attempt did not achieve the desired results.

Reuters could not immediately verify the report. Boeing declined to comment."

For non-aviators, this tells me that by the time the crew had recognised the MCAS malfunction AND followed the emergency Boeing drill (switch off the electric trim) the nose-down effect had become so great that (presumably) frantic winding of the manual trim wheel (yes, is IS a slow procedure) was not correcting the dive quickly enough so they re-engaged the electric trim in order to regain the faster trim function using the control column switches. REMEMBER this supposedly all happened at about 450' AGL, so not a lot of time to spend looking at a windscreen rapidly filling with mother earth!

It would thus seem to be that having regained the necessary nose-up trim the now 're-activated' dreaded MCAS pitched the nose down yet again.

Poor sods! I used to firmly believe in Boeing!

[Slasher]

Boac or anyone - do you know if MCAS only activates when all the flaps and slats are actually up, or does it activate when the flap lever itself is moved and in the 0 detent? Ta.

[Boac]

No - that is a question I haver no answer to. I did wonder when I heard '450' AGL'. This could be yet another deadly nugget hidden by Boeing. All we know is it apparently uses a 'Flaps UP' signal, but from where...?