ET crash ADD NBO

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barkingmad
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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#641 Post by barkingmad » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:48 pm

I’m sure all accounts of early RB211 fanblades end up with titanium as in:

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 200797.PDF

But I could be wrong.............. :-?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#642 Post by OFSO » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:16 pm

France 24 has just paraphrased O'Leary's comments on Boeing "because I can't actually repeat on air the words he used in his press conference" said the lady announcer.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#643 Post by Rwy in Sight » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:48 pm

Maybe he is after a really really big discount.

Capetonian

Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#644 Post by Capetonian » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:53 pm

I believe he said : "Until Boeing get their ***** together"
As always, he's right.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#645 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:57 pm

It may be that his order costs him nothing...because he'll cancel it.

Lots of talk in the financial news (e.g. CNBC) about the lack of oversight by the FAA of Boeing, and that that will have to change bigtime. Also pointed out that Congress keeps nickel-and-diming the FAA's budget so they can't afford enough good engineers to do the checking. This is a fair cop, to my ears. It also chucks in the question as to whether Congress will try to cover up its own role in this affair or make a big show about fixing it, and whether or not that will accelerate or slow the recertification process. Involving Congress normally slows things to a crawl.


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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#646 Post by barkingmad » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:02 pm

Shame on the BBC for the title of this evenings “Boeing’s Killer Planes”.

Those of us with a few summers under or overhanging our belts will recall lots of other manufacturers’ foulups which have resulted in more than 1 fatal accident before effect, cause and solution have been sorted.

McD-D didn’t have a very good track record on manufacturing shortcuts and falsified paperwork but that is all in dim&distant past from which today’s makers should have recorded and learnt the lessons.

The 73 variants have given good service to date with the exception of the rudder-hardover accidents, allegedly never satisfactorily explained. The 747 frame 41 problems were rapidly addressed and the 787s battery difficulties seem to have been sorted.

Seems like since around the millennium Boeing have started the slide into a 4th rate organisation dominated by bottom line bean counters who’ve likely never handled a metal file nor a hacksaw. Did the rot set in around the A H F Ducommun affair or was it earlier?

I had 10 very safe and happy years on the NG and the first rumblings came from an unhappy XL Manchester pilot who told me what a heap of ordure the -900 was, thereby making me much relieved I didn’t have to tolerate the glitches in what was then regarded as a stretch too far.

Back to the program it would have been better for tonight’s show to have dug really deep in exposing the current decade’s corporate culture and to have renamed it appropriately.

At the time of writing I await with interest how the broadcaster will handle the topic and hope to be pleasantly surprised but not holding my breath.

Does anyone recall the BBC’s transmission of airport scenes with relatively modern jets in the picture accompanied by the sound of RR Dart turboprops to add “authenticity”?! :((

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#647 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:47 pm

The MAX proves once again, not that it needed it, that self-certification is a deathtrap in aviation. Congress will now have to stump up the cash for the FAA to do their job properly, and institute the revised procedures, hire the engineers, etc. However, one wonders where they will find the engineers. They can't hire them straight from Boeing for obvious reasons. In my experience the ones who quit the FAA because of this mess developing won't be coming back, not least because the FAA managers who ignored them will still be in place. They might be persuaded to do the work as a one-off on consultant rates whilst new guys are trained up, but I doubt any beancounters will authorise that. And all of this, I suggest, needs to happen before the MAX gets recertified. Add in that a lot of managers at Boeing are currently trying to track down and reduce their part in the papertrail that approved the MCAS in the first place, and I recall can't see a date before, well, let's take O'Leary's idea that nothing may well happen before June next year, at least for non-US customers.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#648 Post by barkingmad » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:16 pm

BBC program did well though around the one third of the time could have been reallocated to digging into the corruptable corporate structure behind the disaster.

"...many of the attitudes people adopt and the actions they execute when acting as corporate operatives can be characterized as psychopathic. You try 'to destroy your competitors, or you want to beat them one way or another'....and you're not particularly concerned with what happens to the general public as long as they're buying your product". A quote from the book "The Corporation" by Joel Bakan, published in 2004.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#649 Post by ian16th » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:20 pm

barkingmad wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:48 pm
I’m sure all accounts of early RB211 fanblades end up with titanium as in:

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFA ... 200797.PDF

But I could be wrong.............. :-?
Dunno just what parts were Nimonic Alloy, but when RR went bust, Henry Wigging cancelled an expansion program that was planned in anticipation of RB 211 sales that didn't happen.

All output that went to RR had to be creep tested before it left the Wigging premises.

The computer equipment that was controlling the temperature of the 400 creep furnaces was given an AID rubber stamp!
Cynicism improves with age

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#650 Post by barkingmad » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:32 pm

May I clarify my previous quote re Corporate Psychopathy by completing the expert's statement?
"Yet, despite the fact that executives must often manipulate and harm others in oursuit of their corporations' objectives, Hare insists they are not psychopaths. That is because they CAN function normally outside the corporation-'they go home, they have a warm and loving relationship with their families and they love their children, they love their wife and in fact their friends are friends rather than things to be used.' Businesspeople should therefore take some comfort from their ability to compartmentalize the contradictory moral demands of their corporate and noncorporate lives, for it is precisely this schizophrenia...that saves them ftom becoming psychopaths."

So that's all right then.

They and we can sleep easy..........

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#651 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:43 pm

Indeed!
I can sleep easy because...I don't use their products. Come to think of it, I don't use any products that I don't feel comfortable with, which normally comes from personal recommendation, or an extensive track record, or me taking the thing apart, or visiting the factory and knowing someone who works there (as with the Tornado F3). And I've done just about all my training courses, and all the dangerous ones, at the best training establishments on the planet. It's worth the money. I'm a very cautious guy!

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#652 Post by barkingmad » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:00 pm

Where have we heard before now of the lack of adequate info, training and ultimately lack of effective regulatory oversight of a new aircraft feature?

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/BritishM ... 25.939.pdf

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/BritishM ... /33.83.pdf

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/ll_main. ... LLTypeID=6

As I recall before the Kegworth crash and the Dan-Air fan disintegration incident, the fan was a modification to an existing CFM56 engine but had not been thoroughly flight tested under the impression that it was not a significant change to the model.

Therefore under persuasion from Boeing & CFM both the FAA and the UK CAA, world certification leaders at the time, allowed an engine into passenger service which had NOT been through the normal flight test schedule which would have exposed the inflight intake conditions which led to the destructive vibration regime.

As for that miserable EFIS display, the less said the better.

That’s why I constantly harp on about the lack of grumpy old pilots and engineers, with many years of accident report reading in their non-volatile memories, not being present when the latest whizzo toy is being designed or modified.

But hey ho, THEY know better. (Edited for further Lessons Learned detail.)

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#653 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:15 pm

My training and frontline experience was full of grumpy old pilots and engineers, and I listened to every word. All it cost me was the time and effort to make tea or buy beers. And things happened to me that resulted in non-events rather than accident reports; AF447 would be one. I could name a dozen more at least where fatal accidents really happened to others in near identical circumstances, in one case only 20 minutes later, but I had the transmitted wisdom of the ages to draw on. I had the same sort of experiences in teaching, offshore sailing, etc.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#654 Post by Rwy in Sight » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:27 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:43 pm
Indeed!
I can sleep easy because...I don't use their products. Come to think of it, I don't use any products that I don't feel comfortable with, which normally comes from personal recommendation, or an extensive track record, or me taking the thing apart, or visiting the factory and knowing someone who works there (as with the Tornado F3). And I've done just about all my training courses, and all the dangerous ones, at the best training establishments on the planet. It's worth the money. I'm a very cautious guy!
What car do you drive and what mobile do you use Fox3? Serious question it is not practical to make those kind of decisions and some times it is better to go with the flow. BTW the FO who held the stick back all the way to impact had significant gliding experience.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#655 Post by OFSO » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:23 pm

Is the 737-800 still in production ? Surely yes ? And unblighted by the MAX problem(s).

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#656 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pm

RiS, it is practical for me because I have the knowledge and training to do it. I understand why others go with the flow. However, I still maintain that getting the best instruction for dangerous things works for anybody. I drive the most common truck in the world; they sell a million F150s a year, 25% of all the world's trucks. Mine is 12 years old and all the faults and problems are well known and detectable (though not necessarily solvable ;))) )

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#657 Post by barkingmad » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:53 pm

OFSO, top of the pile via Google search;

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1415287

Let’s just hope they’ve kept the materials and infrastructure in place during the mad rush to get the Max pouring off the end of its underfunded undersupervised undertested production process?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#658 Post by barkingmad » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:00 pm

[
OFSO wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:23 pm
Is the 737-800 still in production ? Surely yes ? And unblighted by the MAX problem(s).

OFSO, top of the pile via Google search;

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=<a href="tel:1415287">

Let’s just hope they’ve kept the materials and infrastructure in place during the mad rush to get the Max pouring off the end of its underfunded undersupervised undertested production process?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#659 Post by OFSO » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:30 pm

Thanks. So O'Leary's claim that he has to sack 900 aircrew in part because of MAX delays (and in part because of Brexit) raises the question why doesn't he cancel his MAX orders and lease now/buy later the -800.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#660 Post by Boac » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:33 pm

Only problem is it is not 'unblighted'. There are questions as to whether IT meets certification requirements.

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