ET crash ADD NBO

[Boac]

FR pilots used to change the placard of the AC weight to take advantage of lower charges

- not just FR

[Rwy in Sight]

FR pilots used to change the placard of the AC weight to take advantage of lower charges

- not just FR

I didn't know that. I am wondering who else did it.

[Boac]

There is no 'magic' in changing MTOW. An aircraft is produced by a manufacturer with a MAX TOW. Even that CAN possibly be increased if the manufacturer is approached (and normally dosh changes hands...). A new higher MTOW will probably change maintenance schedules, of course.

Navigation charges were always based on MTOW. I recall Eurocontrol used to say:
"The MTOW declared should be the maximum certificated take-off weight of the aircraft. In the case of multiple certificated take-off weights, the MTOW to be declared must be the highest weight authorised by the State of registration." (My highlight)

Also critical is the MTOW attached to the aircraft noise certificate.

So 'an' airline has an aircraft with an MTOW of, say, 70,000kg, but 95% of the time its sectors and loads are such that it always finds it taking off at <65,000kg. It 'approaches' its country of registration and requests a lower 'certified' MTOW of 65,000kg be recorded against that airframe - perhaps even a range of several different MTOWs. In days of yore this process used to take days if not weeks, involving 'teams of horsemen carrying the papers to London' etc. Now it is a darned site quicker.

For each flight, this new MTOW will be the limiting factor on aircraft loading AND will be notified to the Navigation Charges units across the countries over which the aircraft flies. The aircraft placard is a 'cosmetic' thing, and relevant in real terms only to the possibility of a ramp check. Changing it should, really, be an engineering function, I guess, but - really - undoing a screw or two and dropping in a new piece of paper/plate?? Whether it had 'official' approval I know not and I guess the engineering unions would have complained, but it happened. The important bit is the notification by OPS to the Nav Charges units.

The problem comes when an operator utilises the option BUT THEN flies at a higher MTOW than declared. RiS - I just CANNOT imagine why you mentioned FR............

[Capetonian]

MTOW is partially determined by runway air temperature. A certain airline I once worked for had the nasty and dangerous habit of manipulating load sheets by knocking a degree or two off the temperature to permit a higher MTOW. The 'planes were always loaded to the gunwales and I used to hold my breath when I watched them trundling along the runway and taking off by raising the undercarriage and praying that they'd have enough lift to clear the perimeter fence.

[Boac]

MTOW is partially determined by runway air temperature

- not the one we are discussing here! You mean RTOW.

[Capetonian]

Yes, of course. I stand corrected. Thank you.
MTOW is a permanent value assigned by the manufacturer, RTOW is a variable as per conditions and is what I was referring to.

[ian16th]

MTOW is partially determined by runway air temperature. A certain airline I once worked for had the nasty and dangerous habit of manipulating load sheets by knocking a degree or two off the temperature to permit a higher MTOW. The 'planes were always loaded to the gunwales and I used to hold my breath when I watched them trundling along the runway and taking off by raising the undercarriage and praying that they'd have enough lift to clear the perimeter fence.

That wouldn't have been in Efrica, would it?

[llondel]

Article?
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -controls/
It is stated that MCAS will be made more reliable. This is false. Since the system will now be duplex with either AoA sensor or flight computer failure causing a system shutdown, it will be roughly half as reliable at best, and may be as little as a quarter as reliable.
It will make it more safe.
The control problem due to the new engines is flaps up low speed, typically just after takeoff. There's therefore no need for a land ASAP.

Doesn't it have the opposite effect? You want to keep it in the air for as long as possible for best survival rating. Slowing down to land is what's dangerous so put that off until you really have to.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I would need to know more about the system and the problem it's supposed to fix to be sure.

[Boac]

Slowing down to land is what's dangerous so put that off until you really have to.

- not that simple, I'm afraid. According to all I have seen, the MCAS system was designed to 'assist' with your 'slow' flight AND for what is known in the trade as a 'wind-up turn' (a high alpha induced in a sudden manouevre). Note the words top left

This, I think - and the jury is still out - renders the aircraft non-compliant with the 'regulations' and whether this constitutes an 'unserviceable' and 'unsafe' aircraft needs to be decided. . I would be one of the first to agree that 'handling competent' crews SHOULD be able to manage without MCAS in all flight regimes, but that ain't an option.

[Woody]

Anyone know what the difference is between a 737-max8 and the 737-8q8 operated by LOT is, because they look mighty similar?

[Wodrick]

Best guess
737-8q8 is a standard 800 series built for the customer Q8 (ILFC) just as BA has 747-436s 36 being their customer code.
The 737max8is I think the same capacity as an -800 but then with lots of little twiddles to improve performance, one of which is different, larger engines which needed mounting in a different position which is where the trouble starts.

[OFSO]

Only distantly related to the 737Max fiasco, but a US Government Report lays the blame for the recent series of US Navy Vessels crashing with many fatilities into other floating devices, on touch-screen controls, being that the designers didn't know how the sailers would be using them, and the sailers didn't know how to use them. A huge refit with the installation of such things as steering wheels connected to rudders, and throttles connected to engines is planned. Seriously....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The two recent USN collisions I looked at in depth were due to crew f#ck-ups, and female crew at that. The touch screen excuse sounds like just that. The loss of the KNM Helge Ingstad is also being hushed up and random blame attributed elsewhere, one suspects for similar reasons. OODs for both Fitzgerald and John S McCain were female, radar officer for Fitzgerald was female (and black), deputy OOD for McCain was female. It's highly likely OOD and deputy OOD for Helga Ingstad were female (4 out of 5 nav officers were female), and one may have been a female USN exchange officer, but the Norwegians aren't saying a word. All these six were determined by the US reports (I've just reread them), and highly likely to be from the Norwegian prelim report, to be the primary cause of the accidents for lack of leadership, and lack of planning, and failure of professional skills, and poor response after the collision. Three collisions, all caused by female officers, and all for total professional failure.
I've worked with women in all forms of endeavour, including military yachts. Women are perfectly capable of performing these duties, and I have happily trusted them to do so, but these ones sure weren't. It's the recruiting, training and discipline processes that are horrendously at fault. It's almost impossible to chuck out the bad ones, or retrain the weak ones, and the PC publicity machine is getting hordes of bad ones recruited in the first place to make the numbers look good. Political Correctness kills.

[Rwy in Sight]

I don't live in the US but most people I know have a smart phone with a touch-screen. I am surprised how sailors don't know how to use them and how designers didn't test them.

[Boac]

"All these six were determined by the US reports (I've just reread them), and highly likely to be from the Norwegian prelim report, to be the primary cause of the accidents for lack of leadership, and lack of planning, and failure of professional skills, and poor response after the collision. " - women drivers, huh! Should never have got the vote, grump grump grump...

[ian16th]

women drivers, huh! Should never have got the vote, grump grump grump...

Blame the Kiwi's, they started that particular rot!

[llondel]

Only distantly related to the 737Max fiasco, but a US Government Report lays the blame for the recent series of US Navy Vessels crashing with many fatilities into other floating devices, on touch-screen controls, being that the designers didn't know how the sailers would be using them, and the sailers didn't know how to use them. A huge refit with the installation of such things as steering wheels connected to rudders, and throttles connected to engines is planned. Seriously....

You can usually tell whether a user interface was designed with input from someone who knows how it should be used, or whether it was just knocked up by a bloke with a spec and no clue as to what's important. Imagine an aircraft where to engage reverse thrust, you had to click on the engine menu (probably per engine, too), then check the box marked "reverse", click OK and then answer the "Are you sure?" prompt. If it was designed by someone with a clue then at least you'd have a big prominent button on "landing" screen that would normally be displayed during the final approach phase so you could get to it quickly. Of course, the chap with the real clue would do it the way it's done now with some nice physical handles and levers to move, easy to do when needed, hard to do by accident.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Or indeed should one need to deselect it then reselect it just after touchdown on a wet runway with zero forward viz due to the formation leader's T/R stirring up the standing water. And of course with that aircraft just in front of you, slowing but not visible.

[Rwy in Sight]

Or indeed should one need to deselect it then reselect it just after touchdown on a wet runway with zero forward viz due to the formation leader's T/R stirring up the standing water. And of course with that aircraft just in front of you, slowing but not visible.

I take it you talk from experience. And that prompts me a question: does Tornado have reverse thrust?