ET crash ADD NBO

[Ex-Ascot]

still didn't take manual control until he had sea spray on the windscreen.

- I think that is incorrect - the whole point is that it was manual control that caused the accident. The system is not supposed to operate with A/P engaged.Turning it round and smacking it on the deck hero-fashion is the last action I would have taught with an unknown pitch control issue. Climbing to 5000ft was spot on. What happened after that was the problem.

Boac, Have I read the report incorrectly then? Thought that it was in auto. Capt had 21 bashes at trimming with the stick buttons. Gave it to the F/O who had a couple of goes, then took manual control too late before they hit the water. Will this auto trim system work if autopilot disconnected?

I would want that aircraft under my direct control. Straight pilot input no computers involved. Was this possible?

Diary note. Do not get onto a new aircraft until a few have crashed and they have ironed out the problems.

[Alisoncc]

We had a similar situation here, which led to a Banking Royal Commission. The regulatory authorities were in bed with the big banks, and the banks were getting away with anything and everything - criminal acts like money laundering, charging for financial advice provided to deceased clients, a whole raft of nasties. Whilst the bulk of the criticism was levelled at the banks, the reality was the regulatory authorities were doing sweet FA, except collecting their salaries - and perks from the banks.

To my way of thinking certifying the 737Max as a minor modification to a thirty year old 737 is beyong belief.

Alison

[k3k3]

Try 50 year old, first flight of the 737 was in April 1967.

[ian16th]

Diary note. Do not get onto a new aircraft until a few have crashed and they have ironed out the problems.

Otherwise known as 'staying away from the bleeding edge of technology'.

[ian16th]

Try 50 year old, first flight of the 737 was in April 1967.

No one answered my question in my post #19!

[k3k3]

Ryanair 737-800 aircraft have two overwing exits per side.

https://www.google.com/search?q=737-800 ... vrM8LGyV8M:

[Boac]

Boac, Have I read the report incorrectly then? Thought that it was in auto. Capt had 21 bashes at trimming with the stick buttons.

I think Barking Mad posted this earlier but I cannot find it, so I refer you to the excellent Chris Brady Site http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm which carries that good description on the system - well, the best we can have at present since it appears shrouded the darkness! NB It only works (we think!), A/P Off and Flaps UP, although I would not put it past a 'possible' that another failure could negate that.

FYI, any use of the electric trim by a pilot would disengage the A/P

We appear now to see the stick shaker starting during the take-off roll on the LionAir and ET as the mis-behaving alpha vane gives a 'stall' reading. Somewhat disconcerting, and a definite STOP for me (before V1) The crucial 'pilot' failing in both cases is the failure to use the stab trim cut-outs and I CANNOT understand why both crews allowed the ships to accelerate so fast, which drastically increases the out-of-trim and makes a manual trim wheel movement very hard to do.

[Cacophonix]

Boeing and, potentially the FAA, face class actions in the courts and this one is going to run and run if, as it appears, these two accidents have been caused by deficiencies in the design, certification, documentation and the provision of information and pilot training in the use of the system.

A Boeing hustled in 2015 to catch up to Airbus and certify its new 737 MAX, Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) managers pushed the agency’s safety engineers to delegate safety assessments to Boeing itself, and to speedily approve the resulting analysis.

But the original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA for a new flight control system on the MAX — a report used to certify the plane as safe to fly — had several crucial flaws.

That flight control system, called MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System), is now under scrutiny after two crashes of the jet in less than five months resulted in Wednesday’s FAA order to ground the plane.

Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed.

The safety analysis:
Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.

Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

Read more here...

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

The photo shows the AoA sensor (circular object below the pitots)

Caco

[Pontius Navigator]

To my way of thinking certifying the 737Max as a minor modification to a thirty year old 737 is beyong belief.

Alison

Thirty? We met a crew, Britannia I think, in Malta in 1972 so that is 47+?

There were two Captains, the checker was Wynch, brother of the senior plod at Akrotiri. They had been routed to Sicily but diverted to Pantelaria. Ask they didn't know where that was they went to Luqa.

[ian16th]

Ryanair 737-800 aircraft have two overwing exits per side.

https://www.google.com/search?q=737-800 ... vrM8LGyV8M:

Thank you.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ryanair 737-800 aircraft have two overwing exits per side.

https://www.google.com/search?q=737-800 ... vrM8LGyV8M:

Do you have to pay extra for a choice of exits?

[ian16th]

I don't know where the original Bloomberg article is.

Boeing had too much sway in vetting own jets, aviation authority was told.

[OFSO]

Choice of overwing exits is free, don't be silly ! There is of course a small charge for the use of the wing as walkway, of course. And stepladder, if required.

[k3k3]

Just hold your contactless card next to the handle and the escape hatch will open, this has the benefit of limiting the charge to £30.

[Boac]

From CNBC:

"The U.S. Department of Transportation on Tuesday asked the agency’s watchdog to audit the Federal Aviation Administration’s approval of the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft after two fatal crashes of the new and fast-selling planes in less than five months killed 346 people.

Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao on Tuesday sent a memo to Calvin Scovel, inspector general for the department, formalizing the request."

Should prove interesting!

[Ex-Ascot]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed

[Boac]

I am still heavily bemused as to why other operators appear to have NEVER experienced the same failure over a significant time.

[barkingmad]

Re the Bloomberg jump-seat pilot article I am reminded of the post 9/11 paranoia where many companies won't permit non-operating crew riding jumpseat in case they go mad and crash the plane.

Inverse thinking on security? Usually the rigged jumpseat and presence of "friendly force" in the cockpit would increase the safety against intruders but that has been dismissed by UK & some USA organisations as not worthy of consideration.

If the Bloomberg article is true then howzabout a rethink by our AAs & management??

[barkingmad]

Hi BOAC, are you referring to posting # 42 on this thread? If so I plead guilty (diminished responsibility m'lud) !

Otherwise I'm baffled but pleased to be mentioned.

[Ex-Ascot]

The more qualified people on the flight deck the better as far as I am concerned. I presume with double crews there are four pilots on the flight deck for take off and landing. I found it very odd going from four down to two up front. Couldn't even have a decent game of bridge.

Flying across the pond on one occasion HRH PP came out of the Royal compartment to complain about the noise the Capt and Nav were making playing cards in the main passenger compartment. He knew that I was in the LHS and inquired who was RHS. When told his secretary he shrugged his shoulders and went back into his box. Very nice little girlie. Just like all of these girls from titled parents all she wanted to do was marry a guards officer. Probably did.