ET crash ADD NBO

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Slasher

Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#601 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:44 am

Moreso for RiS, this just in. I found this online since I can't openly scan and publish Co bulletins on a public site.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... no-459718/

The bulletin I just now received through the Training facility on the 321 neo (new engine order) says that both Elacs will be tweaked to cover the cases of G/A at aft c of g and light GW, GPWS terrain warning (i.e. PULL UP!), and Windshear Recovery drills (headwind case).

I might add with a loss of both Elacs, SEC 2 takes over in pitch. Since this puts the flt controls in Alternate Law anyway only the Load Factor protection remains.

I'll know more when I get back to HKG.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#602 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:03 am

Is this what used to be covered on previous aircraft by telling the pilots not to pull back on the stick so bloody hard?

Load Factor Protection! - Luxury! When I were lad..........

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#603 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:16 am

Fox...it means you can instantly pull instant full backstick (if say avoiding a bloody great mountain just in front) and not rip the friggin' wings off.

And mate you're talking to a lad who cut his teeth on airliners before GPWS, fancy EFIS screens, FBW and poofter colour radar were invented.

Might add in Normal and Alternate Law, LF protection is there. In Direct Law - you pull too hard then say goodbye to those long planky things that keeps one's bum aloft.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#604 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:27 am

Ah yes, the old 'looking out of the window' technique. Why do airliners still have windows?

I have dodged a fair few mountains in my time, why not just pull max 'g' rather than max back stick*? Would that involve the now-forbidden General Handling, so that pilots know how much pull is required for max 'g'? Or (radical idea, I know), not fly an airliner into a mountain in the first place? Or does that bring us back to looking out of the window?

* not that I've ever had to do either.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#605 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:32 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:27 am
Why do airliners still have windows?
So you can watch all those cute big-tit-bouncing female pax as they walk across the apron dummy! :p

Curvy asses too if that's your thing.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#606 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:01 am

Alles klar bekommt

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#607 Post by Boac » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:03 am

"it means you can instantly pull instant full backstick (if say avoiding a bloody great mountain just in front) and not rip the friggin' wings off."

As AF447 demonstrated. You just smash them off when you hit the Southern Atlantic.

Well-called the 'Scarebus'.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#608 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:08 am

Slasher wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:32 am
Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:27 am
Why do airliners still have windows?
So you can watch all those cute big-tit-bouncing female pax as they walk across the apron dummy! :p

Curvy asses too if that's your thing.
Add the mamary-privileged member of ground staff.

Slasher how come and this directive applies only on A321 NEO and not all the NEO?

Could some one explain me please the relation between pulling back the stick and pulling MAX G?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#609 Post by Slasher » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:12 am

I call it that too Boac.

How do you know who's the most experienced Scarebus pilot in the cockpit?

"WTF is it doing now?"
"Ah...it's doing that again."

RiS - as said earlier the 320 neo FBW (Elacs) were already tweaked before leaving TooLoose. But I'll find all that out when I get back.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#610 Post by ian16th » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:13 pm

Cynicism improves with age

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#611 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:27 pm

Whatever their legal influence domestically, it doesn't get the aircraft recertified, or recertified abroad. Personally I am not sure the engineering and design faults are economically fixable, and I think the time factor is important. Has Boeing got enough good engineers left to fix the problems economically in the time available, especially if the trim force problem means a major re-engineer of the tailplane? To me, the ever-lengthening list of problems shows a dearth of talent left in the company. These problems aren't just corner-cutting by management, but actually poor design from first principles.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#612 Post by barkingmad » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:21 pm

An old question but still valid.

Was there a grumpy old pilot(s) present in the room, with a voice, as this heap of camel dung was being “designed”?

And if not, why not?

And if they raised objections or risk queries with this wonderful new MCAS system, were they ignored or argued away by the geeks and bean counters?

Presumably a proper risk analysis was performed looking at possible failure modes and the (in)abilities of slightly built or even ‘normal’ anthropoids to use the newly shrunken trim wheel in the last resort case?

I bet they never thought putting it into production might cost $5,000,000,000 and endanger the company’s future.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#613 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Presumably a proper risk analysis was performed looking at possible failure modes and the (in)abilities of slightly built or even ‘normal’ anthropoids to use the newly shrunken trim wheel in the last resort case?
I have not seen a proper testing, including failure mode analysis and the practicalities like trim wheel force, done by anybody, anywhere, on anything, for 20 years. The only exception would be the stuff I've personally done for others. I have not been properly trained on a formal training course on anything for 20 years, with the exception of the chainsaw course I did earlier this year.

Anyone else been lucky enough to encounter anything competent?
I bet they never thought putting it into production might cost $5,000,000,000 and endanger the company’s future.
Quite a lot of people in senior management are not idiots. What they do is hide the possible consequences from themselves (as well as every one else), and hope it doesn't happen on their watch, and that they get promoted out of there before it does, thanks to the savings they made by not doing the job properly. They also negotiate themselves massive pension contributions and built-in golden goodbyes in case it does. And every corporation has made sure that all corporate manslaughter laws are toothless.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#614 Post by barkingmad » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:32 pm

The sight of senior management being led off to gaol in handcuffs has a powerful deterrent effect on those still in post.

Alas it doesn't happen often enough especially in UK.

Collins English Dictionary: A guillotine is a device used to execute people, especially in France in the past. A sharp blade was raised up on a frame and dropped onto the person's neck.

Now where did I put those engineering drawings.........?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#615 Post by boing » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:50 pm

Barking,

There are two problems that have arisen.
1. Non-aviator management that will accept any design feature if it saves money and they have reasonable assurance that the design is acceptable.
2. Non-aviation designers who only consider the first level of utility of their design.

Put these two together and you create a dangerous mutual self-reinforcing echo chamber.

Case in point that I have mentioned before. At the roll-out of the 777 someone asked a designer why it had not been equipped with side-stick controls. Designer says (trying to avoid using your "grumpy old pilot(s)" phrase) that airline senior pilots insisted on the old fashioned (implied sneer) control column. Of course, the designer was right in that a side-stick controller would have done the job. What he did not appreciate is what a great aid to safety and effective training that is provided by two control columns tightly linked together.

How many times in training have we said to Bloggs "Now follow me through lightly on the controls and feel my movements"?
How many times have you casually and lightly followed a new co-pilot through on the controls on a challenging cross-wind landing?

The tactile feedback of twin control columns has been a valuable asset for generations of pilots but the shallow level of practical aviation knowledge in design and management ignored this and other tested solutions relying on automation to deal with the consequences and we have seen how well this worked out. The control column instance is only one example of this blindness. Power levers that do not move under autothrottle operation, autoflight systems that require major reprogramming to carry out a simple ATC instruction, autoflight and navigation failure drills that cause a critical spike in workload when all that is really required is to relax and keep the ship clean side up and not to mention automatic systems that are allowed to over-ride, not just assist but over-ride, pilot input.


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the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#616 Post by barkingmad » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:10 pm

Boing, very fair comment.

Firing squad emits pollution, uses lead & nickel and hence resource quota increased.

My suggested solution is eco-friendly!

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#617 Post by barkingmad » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 am

Hot off the press this morning UK time:

Boeing warns it may stop 737 Max production https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49108807

Capetonian

Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#618 Post by Capetonian » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:34 am

What is going to happen to the 500 or so that have already been built?

I can think of uses for a few :

Donate to the Iranian government, Jeremy Corbyn, Jacob Zuma, Robbing and Graceless Mugabe, Teodoro Obiang, Bashar Al-Assad, the Guardian, and some of its readers, and others who blight the planet and waste space and oxygen.

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#619 Post by Rwy in Sight » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:52 pm

Does any one here have a critical path analysis on getting the MAX back on flights. I understand it is not going to be a short ceremony in FAA tower saying the grounding has been lifted and next day MAX flies its first commercial flights. I understand some of the steps but realistically for returning to flights back in October some preparations with the airlines should have started already isn't that so?

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Re: ET crash ADD NBO

#620 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:52 pm

Shares in Southwest have just dropped 5%. They will be canceling their Newark flights from November and don't expect the MAX to be back in service this year (Boeing still claims October is realistic). Capacity change to 2% decrease from forecast 5% growth.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/25/southwe ... nding.html

The MAX problems have cost American Airlines $175m so far.

Worldwide, other certifying agencies have already stated they will conduct their own reviews of Boeing and FAA actions and investigations before any re-certification. It would not surprise me in the least if Europe and China, who produce competing aircraft, wait till the FAA clears the MAX before even starting those reviews.

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