I remember reading a report at the time that the F/O called go around as they hit the starlings and hit the levers.The captain noticed that the engines were not responding as they should,took control and dumped it on the runway with the resultant over run into the mud.It was estimated that circa 200 starlings hit the plane.I have no links to the report.Its just something I read at the time.Maybe it happened in a different manner.Slasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:47 amHmm...not necessarily sah. When I said earlier it may've been a bit of a tough call I meant wrt low-time capts with minimal cmd training. This is what I assumed with this dingle. We are talking about a lousy low-class low-cost ratty outfit here.
The problem IMHO is mainly to do with procedural training where it's drummed in repeatedly that when there's a problem and doubt exists, GA and sort it out in the air then come back and land. This as you know can be highly instinctive if one has posesses only limited experience and training to fall back on. It could've been a factor in this incident. Recall the Air Florida prang where 99% of the takeoffs are done in non-icing wx. The majority of my flying has been in non-icing airport wx - but that AF event taught me to ALWAYS check the TAT and have a look outside whether it's -10C in Munich or 50C in Riyadh before responding to the ant-ice part of the pre-takeoff checklist. But anyway...
Then again you can't train for every eventuality of course. There are some occurrences that give a clear black and white indication to continue on and land when close to the runway (and visual) - e.g. fuel leak and/or low fuel warning, engine fire, a total AC failure etc. But there are others that are certainly grey when a decision has to be made NOW - sudden single slat separation (esp if landing at MLW for the runway despite the 67/91% factoring), sudden elevator jam (hard landing risk particularly with variable wind dir) - to name just a couple. In both instances a modern jet aircraft is still controllable in the air, difficult to an extent but controllable.
Would you or me or anyone else experienced and well trained have gone around in the same birdstrike event? Course not! If you were a junior F/O? Most likely. If you were really bloody tired? Trust me - when one is shagged out one can do some really dumb things - and fcuking Ryanscare works it's crews to death. But yes the capt fuct up whatever the reasons.
Did he get the arse in the end?
BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
- OFSO
- Chief Pilot
- Posts: 18601
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:39 pm
- Location: Teddington UK and Roses Catalunia
- Gender:
- Age: 80
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Not surprised it's taken the Italians so long. Six years ago I attended two conferences a month apart. The one in Wien, organised by the British Board of Trade & Industry, produced and distributed the minutes two weeks later. The one in Rome, organised by the Sapiensa University, I'm still waiting...
- Stoneboat
- Capt
- Posts: 1947
- Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:09 pm
- Location: 50-13.5N/66-16.0W
- Gender:
- Age: 77
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
The engine was supposed to consume x amount of oil per hour. There was a little mini pump on the number 5? bearing that supplied a certain amount of lubrication to said bearing and if it didn't, a bearing seizure - followed by engine failure - would be the result. I think that was the way it was explained.Weren't there some funnies about the lubrication system?
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Did some remove my postSlasher wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:47 amHmm...not necessarily sah. When I said earlier it may've been a bit of a tough call I meant wrt low-time capts with minimal cmd training. This is what I assumed with this dingle. We are talking about a lousy low-class low-cost ratty outfit here.
The problem IMHO is mainly to do with procedural training where it's drummed in repeatedly that when there's a problem and doubt exists, GA and sort it out in the air then come back and land. This as you know can be highly instinctive if one has posesses only limited experience and training to fall back on. It could've been a factor in this incident. Recall the Air Florida prang where 99% of the takeoffs are done in non-icing wx. The majority of my flying has been in non-icing airport wx - but that AF event taught me to ALWAYS check the TAT and have a look outside whether it's -10C in Munich or 50C in Riyadh before responding to the ant-ice part of the pre-takeoff checklist. But anyway...
Then again you can't train for every eventuality of course. There are some occurrences that give a clear black and white indication to continue on and land when close to the runway (and visual) - e.g. fuel leak and/or low fuel warning, engine fire, a total AC failure etc. But there are others that are certainly grey when a decision has to be made NOW - sudden single slat separation (esp if landing at MLW for the runway despite the 67/91% factoring), sudden elevator jam (hard landing risk particularly with variable wind dir) - to name just a couple. In both instances a modern jet aircraft is still controllable in the air, difficult to an extent but controllable.
Would you or me or anyone else experienced and well trained have gone around in the same birdstrike event? Course not! If you were a junior F/O? Most likely. If you were really bloody tired? Trust me - when one is shagged out one can do some really dumb things - and fcuking Ryanscare works it's crews to death. But yes the capt fuct up whatever the reasons.
Did he get the arse in the end?
- Rwy in Sight
- Chief Pilot
- Posts: 6740
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:04 pm
- Location: Lost in an FIR somewhere
- Gender:
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
I was flying as a pax on a machine Slasher is well familiar with. The question I had before I read this thread was why CAAs/EASA and the lot don't ask for SOPs that require more hands on flying. If more training is required, all airlines would have to pay more and prices would increase by the same amount on all of them and I feel that it wouldn't be more than a few cents per ticket?
I should have asked the pax around me but I am not sure if it would have been a good topic while airborne.
I should have asked the pax around me but I am not sure if it would have been a good topic while airborne.
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
I have a feeling that there was suggestion that it was RyanAir 'SOP' to G/A in a situation like that. While, as Slasher says, most of us would not do it, there can be a significant pressure to 'follow SOPs'.
I, personally, having worked in the sim with some and knowing their training, have a great respect for RyanAir's training and safety record overall.
PS Viper oil system was 'total loss' - which, having spent 3 years at the College of Knowledge teaching the future Air Marshals to fly the JP3/4, sums up the aircraft's performance, especially the Mk3. Not for nothing was it known as 'constant thrust, variable noise'.
I, personally, having worked in the sim with some and knowing their training, have a great respect for RyanAir's training and safety record overall.
PS Viper oil system was 'total loss' - which, having spent 3 years at the College of Knowledge teaching the future Air Marshals to fly the JP3/4, sums up the aircraft's performance, especially the Mk3. Not for nothing was it known as 'constant thrust, variable noise'.
- Fox3WheresMyBanana
- Chief Pilot
- Posts: 12987
- Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:51 pm
- Location: Great White North
- Gender:
- Age: 61
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
The best reason for getting 100 hrs+ on a the University Air Squadron was that you went straight onto the JP5A and never flew the whistling pig that was the JP3.
- admin
- Chief Engineer
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:58 am
- Location: By a sunny beach on Port Philip Bay.
- Gender:
- Age: 80
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Rib, I can only suspect that our site hosting provider were doing a backup of the databases - beginning of new month. Probably cacheing new inputs whilst doing so, and then failed to process them. A few "funny" things were happening about that time. I exchanged messages with Boac as I had noted some oddities. Everything seems okay now. (Can't see a crossed fingers smiley)
Admin/Alison
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Thanks Alison.I thought I'd upset someone.I do remember at the time that I had to submit it twice before it posted.admin wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:31 amRib, I can only suspect that our site hosting provider were doing a backup of the databases - beginning of new month. Probably cacheing new inputs whilst doing so, and then failed to process them. A few "funny" things were happening about that time. I exchanged messages with Boac as I had noted some oddities. Everything seems okay now. (Can't see a crossed fingers smiley)
Admin/Alison
- Undried Plum
- Chief Pilot
- Posts: 7308
- Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
- Location: 56°N 4°W
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Had a double birdstrike on short finals EDI rwy 25 in an Aztec. One bird went through the right-hand windscreen. Fortunately I had no co-pilot/passenger. It quite certainly would have taken his head off.
The other shitehawk went into the leading edge of the Port outer wing. It felt exactly like I'd had an engine failure on that side, but I couldn't see any engine instruments indication of a failure. The sudden drag and loss of lift on that side and strong buffeting caused by a gull-sized hole in the leading edge mimiced an engine failure. It was dark, so I hadn't seen the damage to the wing. I shut the engine down as a matter of trained reflex, though it was quite unecessary to do so. It never entered my head to go-around.
Adrenalin is brown!
The other shitehawk went into the leading edge of the Port outer wing. It felt exactly like I'd had an engine failure on that side, but I couldn't see any engine instruments indication of a failure. The sudden drag and loss of lift on that side and strong buffeting caused by a gull-sized hole in the leading edge mimiced an engine failure. It was dark, so I hadn't seen the damage to the wing. I shut the engine down as a matter of trained reflex, though it was quite unecessary to do so. It never entered my head to go-around.
Adrenalin is brown!
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
Permission to nick that Cap'n Plum sir?
Never flew an Aztruck though pilots have told me in the past it flew like a brick on one, esp if there were any dangly bits like flaps and gear.
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
As in "Pass me my brown trousers, Carruthers"
- Undried Plum
- Chief Pilot
- Posts: 7308
- Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:45 pm
- Location: 56°N 4°W
Re: BIRDSTRIKE(S) LATE FINALS
It was a positioning flight, sans pax or freight. Very light as I'd flown from Unst without refuelling there. I suppose I could have done a go-around if I'd had any need to, but that runway is huge and the Aztec is tiny, so I had a vast acreage to land on, even though I'd strayed off centreline with the unexpected yaw/roll couple which I mistook for an engine failure.
My right foot advanced completely automatically and I remember chanting "Dead Leg dead engine, the left engine has failed" aloud. That set off my quite unnecessary and inappropriate shutdown of a perfectly good engine. I got what I thought was a droplet of sweat in my eye. It turned out that I'd got a couple of trivial scratches on my forehead and upper cheek from splinters of shattered plexiglass. They were totally superficial, but any skin perforation in that area bleeds disproportionately, as you can see in many a boxing match.
It happened on very short final and once I'd got the engine shut down I made a very brief R/T call "Birdstrike and engine failure, landing".
The fire guys thought I was injured because of the mess of broken windscreen and my bloodied face, but I was actually unhurt.
My right foot advanced completely automatically and I remember chanting "Dead Leg dead engine, the left engine has failed" aloud. That set off my quite unnecessary and inappropriate shutdown of a perfectly good engine. I got what I thought was a droplet of sweat in my eye. It turned out that I'd got a couple of trivial scratches on my forehead and upper cheek from splinters of shattered plexiglass. They were totally superficial, but any skin perforation in that area bleeds disproportionately, as you can see in many a boxing match.
It happened on very short final and once I'd got the engine shut down I made a very brief R/T call "Birdstrike and engine failure, landing".
The fire guys thought I was injured because of the mess of broken windscreen and my bloodied face, but I was actually unhurt.