Boating 737

[barkingmad]

Yet another 737 departs the runway on landing, luckily all aboard walk away.

Does Boeing have an obsession with stalling?

Until I was converted from British 'frames to Boeings at an advanced stage of my career, I was led to believe that Vref meant Vref.

Thereafter, any time I attempted to reach this speed over the paved surface resulted in great angst amongst trainers etc. It appeared that Vref wasn't really Vref and the minimum was Vref+5 kts, excluding additions for turbulence or potential shear.

Now the Max is in trouble due to an assumption line dogs will end up at high AoA in various parts of the flight envelope.

So many 737s have been wrecked with line dogs happily flying the Vref+20kts due to this & that. Maybe time to revisit the Boeing wing design and stall characteristics and try to stop this dangerous practice?

Apart from the 777 at SFO how many have been lost due to a lack of Bernoullis on the approach?

Tin hat donned and awaiting the flak.

[Boac]

Always aimed to touch down at Vref-5 if I could, and never had a problem, except with the co-pilots who couldn't and got all twitchy..

I blame the trainers.

[Ex-Ascot]

It all depends on the length of tarmac available. We often had pax or crew standing on landing. At LHR for example I would fly the thing onto the runway using most of it. Same landing fees no matter how much of it you use.

With the airline it was chop the power and plant it. See how many overhead locker doors would open. Forget my record. Many.

[barkingmad]

Ex-A, can you remember using a raw Vref at the threshold if no other factors affected, as per it's original definition for landing a classic British aircraft? (and a beautiful 'frame at that!)

https://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn8-2-apprspeed.pdf This gives the millenium view of how it should be done but already a Cat2 involves a +5kts addition and then not too far on we end up at the ref+20 very quickly for even a steady non-turbulent headwind.

130kts contains 16,900 widgets of energy at the threshold but 150kts has 22,500 widgets of energy, approx one-third extra joules/kilocalories/ergs/footpounds to be dissipated in the same piece of real estate supplied by the country of landing.

I repeat, what's the history of approach config stalling accidents compared with overruns into very hostile terrain? Lately we appear to be having far too many overruns and I raise the issue for discussion and for my own clarification.

"In calm-wind conditions or light-and-variable wind conditions, Vref (or Vref corrected for the selected landing flap setting)
plus five knots is a typical target final approach speed."

So here we are with 1000' or 300m til controlled impact and we're still keeping excess energy as per boac's "always aimed to touchdown at Vref+5", so the question might boil down to "does Vref really exist"?

[barkingmad]

"Vref = Landing Reference Speed at a point 50 feet above the landing threshold" is yet another definition, so why all the high-speed arrivals and failures to dump the excess energy?

[Mrs Ex-Ascot]

Is the guardian trying to out do the daily wail?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... le-florida

[limeygal]

I have an acquaintance who flies for Miami Air. I have contacted a mutual friend to find out the gossip Used to desert hop on the 737-this one is one of the work horses, not the series they are having trouble with. Useful a/c back in the day with short-field capability they were ideal for some of the crappy runways around. They were wonderful for the Dhahran shuttle where you were up and down more times than a fiddler's elbow

[Boac]

boac's "always aimed to touchdown at Vref+5"

- 'scuse me, yer honour! That was -5 as per the correct way to fly!

Anyone would think Vref was 'near' stalling!!

PS Did you train any of my F/Os?.....................

[Ex-Ascot]

Ex-A, can you remember using a raw Vref at the threshold if no other factors affected, as per it's original definition for landing a classic British aircraft? (and a beautiful 'frame at that!)

Of course not. Pretty sure +5 was the norm.

[Boac]

Absolutely - to clear up what appears to be some confusion amongst our Sky Gods here.....

Boeing 737 recommendation is Vref+5 (plus necessary additives) on the approach, tapering to Vref+5 at 50', then to Vref and to Vref-5 at touchdown. Still about 30kts+ above stalling speed!

Vref in general is often not related to stall speeds, but to avoiding tail banging on touchdown.

[Boac]

It's a good job the pilots were US Sky Gods and not Ethiopian or Indonesian, or they might have stopped on 10,000'..............

[barkingmad]

"- 'scuse me, yer honour! That was -5 as per the correct way to fly!"

Apologies boac, had wrong specs on when I read yer posting!

Still I query why so many NGs are being converted into scrap when there's frisky weather about, unless it's PURELY cockpit HF and nowt connected with the +20kts target?

If tailstrike is a hazard then the 'frame doesn't match the speeds.........

[Undried Plum]

Real men don't go around.

[probes]

they wouldn't, would they

Also,

See how many overhead locker doors would open.

-I wish that had been the case when I've had trouble trying to get it open .

[Woody]

Real men don't go around.

Never tried to get into Sumburgh in the winter then

[Rwy in Sight]

they wouldn't, would they

Also,

See how many overhead locker doors would open.

-I wish that had been the case when I've had trouble trying to get it open .

Use your elbow Probes. Hit them and then use the lock it works.

[Boac]

These US Skygods elected to land on a wet runway, in a thunderstorm, with a tailwind and, according to the Beeb, a u/s reverser - and went off the end - no Sh!t.

[Rwy in Sight]

Am I the only one seeing similarities with the 737-800 written off in the Caribbean in late 2009 early 2010? They had an over-run in similar conditions, if I am not mistaken.

[AtomKraft]

Yesterday, I heard from my Montenegran F/O, that 'Only pussies flare or deice'.

Offerered in addition to ''Real men don't go around", above.

[OFSO]

Boeing now saying new software will be ready by the end of May. Certification dates, anyone ? I think fears that passengers won't fly the MAX are unfounded. Nobody I know has any idea what aircraft they are about to board as passenger...