Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

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Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#1 Post by Boac » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:54 am


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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#2 Post by k3k3 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:25 am

A very good outcome of a situation that could have been a tragedy.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#3 Post by Undried Plum » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:47 am

One suspects that Russian pilots need rather more than 10 hrs TT of real flying before being plonked in an A321 sim.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#4 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:47 pm

Video here


Some passengers wandering about a bit afterwards, but generally everyone seemed to have done the right thing.

Is the spooling up and down due to an automatic relight sequence, transient surges, or what?

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#5 Post by Slasher » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:13 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:47 pm
Is the spooling up and down due to an automatic relight sequence, transient surges, or what?
Indicative of a classic engine stall Fox. Assuming the left engine did fail completely, the right engine didn't fail but was surging. Even though there's a non-memory QRH drill for engine stall (which I might add initially requires a thrust lever retardation) there wasn't enough time time to do it, and that engine wasn't providing enough thrust anyway to even maintain alt let alone any positive climb gradient. Add to that they were still in the draggy Second Segment configuration. I think the captain made the right decision.

They were lucky they were over level fields and not over a flamin' city or built up area.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#6 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:33 pm

I have not experienced a stall with that long a time cycle; presumably it's a big fan engine thing. I'm used to either machine gun type stalls or something that carries on getting worse.
I agree the aircrew seem to have done the right thing with one out and the other not producing much thrust. Also a good move to shut it down just around touchdown, as it is reported they did. When in non-bang seat aircraft, I always found out what the ground was like in the extended centreline area. I seem to recall suffering 13 "engine failures" on my Bulldog Final Handling Test, including a couple where one had to bit the bullet and accept that a straight ahead was the only option. Lots have died by attempting turnbacks from too low. We used to go very low on practice EFATOs in those days.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#7 Post by prospector » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:32 pm

He did not have much choice, very short time frame but still a job well done. Looks like a very good corn crop, enough mass for a relatively slow deceleration.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#8 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:19 am

Yep a job well done. Called a hero. If it had burst into flames and everyone had died would he have still been a hero? Seems he only has 4,000 hrs. Yes indeed UP, he didn't land that one on automatics. Hope he missed all the bird nurseries in the corn field.

Notice that none of the SLF have their hand baggage with them. The cabin crew in Russia probably have authority to shoot to kill anyone who goes for the lockers on an emergency evacuation. Now, that is a solution to a previously discussed problem.
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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#9 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am

Slasher, in TOP they discuss the flaps used. Any comments about that?

I am not sure shooting can help. You would have the dead bodies littering the aisle.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#10 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 am

Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am
Slasher, in TOP they discuss the flaps used. Any comments about that?

I am not sure shooting can help. You would have the dead bodies littering the aisle.
Not looked at TOP. I would have gone for full flap. I noticed that he didn't. Limited hydraulics with both donks out. Don't know what the back up is on this jet. Yes indeed the Capt may know.

Yes thought of the bodies in the aisle RiS. My theory was you only have to do it once and they would get the idea next time.
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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#11 Post by Boac » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:57 am

"Sorry, Captain , I cannot get full flap - we will have to go-round"?? I wonder also if P2 had completed the PLOG with a change of destination in the few seconds available?? Have they discussed that on TOP?

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#12 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:24 am

Being Russian they may have the habit to ask permission to change the destination.

Ex-A they need to shoot one time and incorporate a short clip on the safety demo.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#13 Post by Slasher » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:00 pm

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am
Slasher, in TOP they discuss the flaps used. Any comments about that?
Not looked at TOP. I would have gone for full flap. I noticed that he didn't. Limited hydraulics with both donks out. Don't know what the back up is on this jet. Yes indeed the Capt may know.
Too much to write on that and it's a busy evening here with the fam. I'll be going back to Honkers late tomorrow arvo so I'll write a reply enroute. Someone remind me if I forget to.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#14 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:28 pm

Easier to run over a dead body?

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#15 Post by Ex-Ascot » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:54 pm

Slasher wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:00 pm
Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am
Slasher, in TOP they discuss the flaps used. Any comments about that?
Not looked at TOP. I would have gone for full flap. I noticed that he didn't. Limited hydraulics with both donks out. Don't know what the back up is on this jet. Yes indeed the Capt may know.
Too much to write on that and it's a busy evening here with the fam. I'll be going back to Honkers late tomorrow arvo so I'll write a reply enroute. Someone remind me if I forget to.
Now Capt, do not forget your riot gear. Gas mask, baton and riot shield to get through the airport. Forget passport that is a minor requirement. Seriously, hope you get back OK.
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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#16 Post by Slasher » Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:01 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:55 am
Rwy in Sight wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:35 am
Slasher, in TOP they discuss the flaps used. Any comments about that?
Not looked at TOP. I would have gone for full flap. I noticed that he didn't. Limited hydraulics with both donks out. Don't know what the back up is on this jet. Yes indeed the Capt may know.
Ex-A and RiS - I don't go to TOP so I haven't read anything there about it. Since all this took place just after they tooked off a lot of things were happening at once and at a very low level. I'll reply in point form:

a) I don't know what flap setting they took off with. I would guess Flap 1. They would've flown at V2+10 with all donks operating. After they had lost No 1 they would've gone for V2. (RiS - V2 is the best angle of climb speed for a given Flap configuration).

b) There are 3 Hyd systems on the A320 - Green (powered by No 1 engine pump only) - Blue (powered by AC electrics only) - Yellow (powered by No 2 engine pump and an AC powered pump which is selected manually).

b) when No 1 engine failed they lost Green Hyd Sys. Yellow Hyd Sys will power Green via a PTU when delta press between the two systems falls to 500 psi. Blue system is not part of the PTU process and minds its own business (Sully ditched using Blue Sys only). Since No 2 engine was still operating, Yellow Sys would've been delivering its 3000 psi.

c) Flap movement can be slow when one hyd sys is powering all via the PTU due to a Priority Valve which reduces pressure so as to not reduce press to all hyd users at the same time.

d) Flap 2 would be the best configuration for landing in the cornfield. It offers the best lift vs Vref reduction and it would take forever to select flaps Full. Remember these guys were descending and didn't have hardly any time.

e) If they took off at Flap 2 then they would've just retained it. (Sully correctly ditched at Flap 2. This gives a better nose up body angle for ditching and corn ploughing with gear up). If they had've gone for Flap Full it would've played havoc with whatever little IAS they had. The airspeed loss would've been rapid and maybe entered the V Alpha Protect range of Normal Law. That would've fuct 'em as the ELAC would've lowered the nose commanding an AoA not lower than V Alpha Max (a tad above full stall).

Go here for the A320 Hyd Sys schematic: http://mobile.airlinetechs.com/airbus/2 ... matic.html

So there you are. Flying at V2 with no slack, one engine out, the other not delivering full TOGA, nothing on the altimeter except the makers name, and descending from only a few hundred feet above the deck. I think the captain did bloody well given all the sh!t suddenly thrust on him.

PS: I never read TOP for incidents like these as most of 'em are armchair experts who blather with full 20/20 hindsight. They're the same morons who criticised Sully for not pushing the Ditching button). And BTW did some idiot post the mandatory METAR?

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#17 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:02 am

I understand one report managed to have the wheels down :(

How far from take off was the crash site? Or his long was the flight?

I know the Nimrod bird strike crash was very close. I don't think the Elmdorf E3 was far out either.

PS

I see at TOP one trustworthy comment quotes descent within 45 seconds and another an altitude of 750 ft. Not much time for analysis, discussion, decision, briefing, then flying it down.

Getting the wheels down might be a recommendation but not much time to adjust to speed and pitch change?

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#18 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:47 am

The Hawk needed a very big nose down push when full flap was taken on a glide approach, and the flare was much harder to judge; guys have died getting it wrong. Given their landing point was not critical, avoiding full flap seems like a good idea. I needed to chuck a Hawk on the ground sharpish from low level when I got a top line oil pressure warning, with a precautionary glide approach after a zoom climb. Nailing the speed is the key thing. I think I was on the ground at Gloucester in 3 or 4 minutes, but at least I had a hard surface to aim at, and 3 minutes is ages compared to the time they had.

As best as I can figure, the place the aircraft ended up is 55.510866, 38.252597 which means they were only 3 miles off the end of the runway when they touched down. 750 ft max sounds about right.
Image

I should think one doesn't bother with gear unless there's a known hard, flat surface beneath. Many aircraft that pancake into fields with no gear just seem to need dusting off and the dents buffing out before being put back into service, whereas a ripped-off gear leg puts you in a world of bother.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#19 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:49 am

I had a glance at the first 3 pages on TOP. No METAR until that point. Nicked the below. So much garbage there difficult to pick out the genuine stuff. Don't think he even made 1,000' Certainly a turn back was out of the question. He is reported to have changed his mind about what to do a few times. Must have been very rapid thoughts. What altitude would you need to consider a turn back onto the reciprocal Capt? Say calm wind.

Edit, sorry Fox missed your post but yes I would say 750'.
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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#20 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:52 am

A lot more than 750 ft I would have thought! 500 foot was the minimum in a Bulldog, and a friend of mine died doing a practice turnback in a Hawk from 1,230 ft max height.

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