Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

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Slasher

Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#61 Post by Slasher » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:51 am

For RiS and others:








In the first vid he alluded to No 2 having failed and that the RAT was deployed. I contend it had only stalled, thus Y sys should've been supplying G sys via the PTU and that No 2 gen was supplying the electrical system. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the noise of No 2 was typically an engine stall. Even if only idle thrust was being delivered during it, Y hyd and No 2 gen would still be doing their stuff. I guess we'll find out when the final report comes out.

The RAT does 2 jobs:

- automatically deploys if IAS is above 100kt if there's a loss of AC buses 1+2. It powers the ESS AC bus, and via the Emergency TR The ESS DC . This all takes 8 secs total. During those 8 secs the aircraft is on batteries only. There is a red guarded switch called MAN ON just above the capt's head in case it fails to deploy automatically.

- can only be manually deployed in the event of a Blue electric pump failure. This is via yet another red guarded switch called RAT MAN ON on the centre overhead Hyd panel.

The RAT will stall below 125kt so a minimum of 140kt is imposed. Below 100kt on landing AC will disconnect from the buses and the batteries will power partial AC ESS via a static inverter. Below 50kts IAS the batteries are connected to the BATT bus and allows APU start (if desired).

PS: RiS you owe me 50 Euros for this training brief! :p

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#62 Post by Rwy in Sight » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:57 am

Slasher, thanks for the course. You do provide value for money.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#63 Post by barkingmad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:44 am

Talk of turn back of a public transport aircraft in these pages leaves me feeling more uncomfortable about my next SLF venture.

I don’t recall the training departments of any of the airlines I operated with promulgating any figures for such a manoeuvre.

Maybe on departure off a grass surrounded runway such as the tulip fields of AMS AND heading for a built up area I would consider turning away to plant my wreckage in a less damaging environment but all this chatter of energy levels achieved versus possible configuration changes might just conceivably affect the judgement of the next unfortunates to end up in this awful quandary.

Sully did brilliantly, yet the armchair aviators dropped out of the woodwork, crawled out from under their stones and proceeded to analyse and criticise and suggest alternative courses of action in slow time and not under pressure.

This Russian crew did a similar brilliant job (good landing definition-everyone walks away), yet we’re being treated to the sort of nitpicking drivel I expect to be posted in T O P.

Nothing to see here, please move along. [-X

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#64 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 am

BM, disagree. Better to discuss and see just how problematic it is for a turn back.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#65 Post by barkingmad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:55 am

I think there are enough tombstones or ashes urns to indicate how unhealthy is the practice.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#66 Post by Slasher » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:01 am

yet we’re being treated to the sort of nitpicking drivel I expect to be posted in T O P.
I also disagree. This isn't any crap here that TOP is infamous for. No one is an armchair expert here Mr Mad, most of us are highly experienced pilots and I haven't seen anyone throw sh!t at the Russian crew. In fact they did a superb job.

Speculations and discussion are innocent. Conclusions based on unproven theories are what is drivel.

Have a read of this thread in its entirety.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#67 Post by barkingmad » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:33 pm

We will agree to disagree.

Maybe some current flyers or those with legible manuals in the loft or cellar who are on O-N can submit whatever criteria their manufacturer or airline are publishing for turnback minimum energy figures.

In the meantime I am uncomfortable with various figures being bandied around in case some unfortunate current jock sees them and thinks they can get away with a manoeuvre which has mostly led to disaster in the past, regardless of ‘frame type.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#68 Post by Pontius Navigator » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:54 pm

You take note of lessons learnt. You don't take them as gospel.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#69 Post by boing » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:36 pm

The biggest aircraft I ever flew where a turnback was even considered was the Jet Provost and even then it was considered to be a last desperate chance.I suppose it could just be worth trying in a large jet if your only other option was flying into the side of a mountain otherwise forget it. Large jets are just not designed for dramatic manoeuvres immediately after take-off they are too low on energy, the idea is not even considered in any certification specs., test pilot trials or pilot training. What makes the bright sparks considering a turn-back believe that they can correlate all of the mathematics, aerodynamics, weather conditions and local conditions into a workable plan of action in a few short seconds. Better to plan for the softest landing possible ahead with the energy you have available. Even if the turn-back was completed successfully you now have low-energy, flying downwind with virtually zero control over your touchdown point (long or short). Whether you succeed is luck not judgement.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#70 Post by ribrash » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:21 pm

boing wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:36 pm
The biggest aircraft I ever flew where a turnback was even considered was the Jet Provost and even then it was considered to be a last desperate chance.I suppose it could just be worth trying in a large jet if your only other option was flying into the side of a mountain otherwise forget it. Large jets are just not designed for dramatic manoeuvres immediately after take-off they are too low on energy, the idea is not even considered in any certification specs., test pilot trials or pilot training. What makes the bright sparks considering a turn-back believe that they can correlate all of the mathematics, aerodynamics, weather conditions and local conditions into a workable plan of action in a few short seconds. Better to plan for the softest landing possible ahead with the energy you have available. Even if the turn-back was completed successfully you now have low-energy, flying downwind with virtually zero control over your touchdown point (long or short). Whether you succeed is luck not judgement.

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Well said.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#71 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:28 pm

The primary question for me was always "What's wrong with the fields beyond the runway?" And almost every time, there was nothing wrong with them. The aircraft might get dinged but you would walk away. So, why risk a turnback? It was very easy indeed to get the turn wrong, not least because of the disorientation as the groundspeed increased during it in any kind of wind.
I think the Russian crew did a fine job.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#72 Post by Slasher » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:51 am

Thing is Fox he was far too low, going down even with wings level, and the remaining donk wasn't delivering the required thrust. Only a madman would attempt a turn back in those circs.

If it was a built up area he probably would've input tiny amounts of bank and prang in between the buildings.

As I replied to you in an earlier post, I would never consider a turnback in a 321 with both engines out unless I had a good 1500ft between my arse and the solid stuff, and depending how far I'd flown from the T/O runway.

Anyway I've said enough on this thread. I'll wait till the final report comes out and then take it from there.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#73 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:50 am

boing, a friend of mine indeed did a turn back in JP. I don't know whether he landed down wind, I suspect he did. Saved the jet, walked out with his stude, didn't get the tie. No coffee and biscuits, just a bollocking.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#74 Post by belfrybat » Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:39 pm

Even if the engine could have been made to give enough thrust to keep flying, it was still damaged, hence unreliable. It could have conked out at the most inconvenient moment .

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#75 Post by boing » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:03 pm

PN

We did demonstrate and practice turn-backs but the number one choice to reach the ground in the case of an engine failure shortly after take-off was the ejection seat. I suppose the way to look at this is to say that even a low performance jet such as a JP had sufficient power to put you in a position where you had enough energy for a turn-back. Even then a turn-back may have required some non-airline practices such as using 45 degrees of bank in a descending turn.

A commercial airliner is different, it is designed to lift the max T/O weight possible for economic reasons, after all, the weight you can lift and the amount of fuel you can carry directly effect profits. This means that from power-up to clean up you are in a quite critical phase of flight. For certification purposes it is considered that the only LIKELY critical failure is a simple loss of SOME power. With the loss of most of your power and possible airframe damage and loss of control surfaces all bets are off even in a straight out departure.

There were certain noise-abatement departures in the US, notably the one at Santa Ana south of Los Angeles, that I thought put the aircraft in such a position and attitude that an engine failure would be very difficult to control.


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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#76 Post by Pontius Navigator » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:35 am

boing, I think the conclusion to my dit was the student was more valuable than the instructor and aircraft.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#77 Post by barkingmad » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:06 am

“A commercial airliner is different, it is designed to lift the max T/O weight possible for economic reasons, after all, the weight you can lift and the amount of fuel you can carry directly effect profits. This means that from power-up to clean up you are in a quite critical phase of flight. “

Especially after derating and TASS thrust reductions you are even worse placed in terms of potential and kinetic energy having staggered off the end of the runway with max commercial load.

Add to that the acknowledged lack of pure handling skills in 21st century pilots discussed here and in TOP and most who even consider this option at low level are heading for disaster.

So can we please forget the turnback option as it’s a definite no-no?!

Maybe you might consider aiming at the runway if you find yourself in the downwind position with energy as part of the departure profile but I still maintain anything like a turnback as has been discussed in the “Cornfields” context shows a worrying intellectual decision-making process. If I am SLF boarding your aircraft tomorrow and I magically realised that was part of your thought process I would have a “panic attack” and refuse to board. And sod the delay getting my checked baggage offloaded ! !

I await incoming from the turnback aces who’ve never even practised the manoeuvre in a jet, unlike the lucky few ex-mil amongst our number who’ve seen it, done it and are better aware of the actual hazards. [-X

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#78 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:19 am

I thought turnbacks were a fun challenge when doing the third or subsequent in a row. Or if you'd just done a few the month before. Even then I'd like to start at a "comfy" height to a familiar airfield.
Doing one in a commercial twin jet having done one in single-engined Cessna 4 years previously (on another continent)? No Thank You!

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#79 Post by Pontius Navigator » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:09 am

I bet turn backs started with biplanes that could turn on a 6d and aviators trying with heavier and heavier machines.

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Re: Amazing 'corny' story - where is Sully when you need him?

#80 Post by boing » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:03 am

PN,

You caused the ringing of a bell from the distant past and I therefore I searched the dusty bookcases and found my copy of "Flight Briefing for Pilots. Volume 1" (first published in 1961). This was the trainee pilots bible during my private pilot training.

Under the section "Taking Off" Messrs. Bramson and Birch gave the following advice.

Engine Failure on Take-Off.
a) Depress the nose to the gliding attitude immediately.
b) Make gentle turns in order to avoid obstacles.
c) Put the aeroplane into the best open space available.

ON NO ACCOUNT ATTEMPT TO TURN BACK TO THE FIELD. (Sic).

Surprised me somewhat. Perhaps turn-backs were covered in Volume 2. ;)))

I therefore consulted my copy of "The British Light Aviation Centre Manual of Flight and Ground Training" , a book directed mainly at potential civilian flight instructors. I was surprised to read in the section on engine failure on take-off "While it is stressed that the pilot should NEVER attempt to TURN BACK to the aerodrome, he may make small turns .......

So, the Aviation Bible of all Bibles was consulted, "AP129 Volume 2 Aircraft Operation" last revised by yours truly on the 20th of August 1966 just before it was removed from official use.
On engine failures after take-off.
Light aircraft or piston powered multi-engined aircraft.
a) A rather cautious approach to the subject here. "While, at low speed and altitude, it is seldom possible or safe to turn back to the airfield moderate changes of heading can be made to avoid obstacles .............
On jet types.
b) "On most turbo-jet aircraft the rate of acceleration is such that, shortly after becoming airborne, the airspeed is considerably higher than the gliding speed. In these types of aircraft it is possible to convert the speed into a higher altitude and lower speed so that it may be possible to regain the airfield after engine failure." I doubt this thinking applied to the military turbojet transports of the time.

I'm a little surprised by these chapters because I remember being shown turn-backs in the Tiger Moth, albeit from a very safe height. Ditto the Jet Provost. The Varsity was plunk it straight ahead. No civilian airline training I ever received over 25 years ever considered a turn-back.



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