Why only Capts should do the initial walkaround.

[Slasher]

On 5 occasions (3 on the 320) during my airline command tenure I've picked up that the engine cowlings were not latched.

The first occurrence (737) the F/O did one and didn't detect it (both engines). Our arses were saved by a savvy tug driver picking it up. After that I did every bloody initial acceptance walkaround whether the F/O was permitted to do it or not.





I've instilled the infants here that if ANYTHING whatsoever looks weird or strange during a walkaround report it IMMEDIATELY to the capt, even to the point to telling him to get off his arse and look at it himself. Better to err on the side of safety and be proved wrong than to not say boo and be (posthumously) proved right.

I've also picked up taped static ports, condomed ASIs and quite a few times a LG pin not removed, yet the Tech Log was already signed off by Engineering.

[barkingmad]

Also if the sector is departing base then it’s better for all to detect and rectify there in preference to discovering the problem at the other end where engineering facilities may be non-existent.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flying in a 141 I saw a small panel, perhaps 5x3 inches was flapping in the upper side, 10 o'clock, of an in board engine. Not easy to have seen on an external walk around but could have been seen by the flt eng had he done internal walk arounds too.

As a pax on an A320 I saw a crack in the wing. Pointed this out the the FA who asked me to remain behind after landing and show the Captain. I don't know why the FA needed me to show the Captain.

Anyway I don't think walk arounds would have helped here.

Earlier, on our own aircraft I spotted a long crack on an engine intake that the Captain missed. I also spotted a hole, about 6x8, in a venturi inlet that had not been spotted by groundcrew, crew chief, or Captain.

You can't have too many walk arounds.

[Pontius Navigator]

LG pin not removed.

Unlike the other things you found Slasher this is the funniest, at least for those watching but cringingly embarrassing for those who missed it. On a par with leaving bomb and missile safety pins in or ejector seat pins though they could get you killed.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Slasher . bring back the flight engineer ! But of course they can miss things too. I was once told that the only incidence of a four engined aircraft suffering a double engine failure was as a result of the flight engineer cocking things up, but I have no details and couldn't possibly comment.
I recall, myself operating as Nav. at a time when the eventual demise of the F/Eng. was under discussion, the junior of two that we carried on that occasion coming on to the flight deck to take over his scheduled duty slot, and being told by his senior mate ... " He (the co-pilot,) forgot to log the chocks off time, it's here in our log - don't tell him ! "

I vowed that I'd never fly without an F/Eng. ( and didn't ) but now I are one - single seat microlight (LSA) - and once got airborne with the Pitot heat cover on despite the Captains' walk around ! ( interrupted, started chatting, my excuse ) Obviously flying not stalling but lower the nose a little to gain a bit of fat, and no ATC so don't have to tell anyone. Climbed until the cows looked the right size and Bob's Yer Uncle. Return to land, long runway, keep the speed until over the threshold then "feel" it on. No problem.

[Capetonian]

I've picked up that the engine cowlings were not latched.

How difficult is it to have a microswitch on such items so that if a circuit is broken it shows a warning light?

[Ex-Ascot]

Speedy:

I was once told that the only incidence of a four engined aircraft suffering a double engine failure was as a result of the flight engineer cocking things up

We had a double engine failure on the VC10. EDI to BZN over MAN. A tyre had overheated and exploded in the undercarriage bay taking out the fuel lines for both engines on that side. MAN was top of decent for BZN. The Capt, a graduate of the ETPS elected to continue to base instead of spiraling into MAN. He got a hat on interview with no tea and biscuits. I could not see a problem with that decision. He had loads of diversions on route if things had got worse.

On walk arounds have found a few loose catches but nothing serious. I frequently questioned tyre states to be told they still had hundreds of hours to go. Never would have passed an MOT.

[Sisemen]

Once did a refuel at a remote station in WA en-route to another and was a bit pushed for time. Filled up, did the the pre-flights, took off and the bloody oil filler door sprang up and started flapping in the breeze. Not wanting to deliver the customer’s aircraft minus a bit of the airframe I gingerly flew a very quick circuit, landed, latched it, and buggered off sharpish. I learnt about walk rounds and pre flights from that!

[CharlieOneSix]

August 1979. Bank Holiday Monday. I was working on a Metropolitan Police contract monitoring the Notting Hill Carnival from the air with a Bolkow 105 helicopter fitted with a massive stone age Heli-Tele camera - see photo. The camera sent live coverage of the Carnival to the Police control room where it was recorded - relevant later, as is the fact that the Allison 250 engines did not like being started whilst still hot. It was a hot day and after we landed at Battersea Heliport from a patrol our engineer leapt into action, refuelled and preflighted in case we got a call out whilst we grabbed a quick coffee.

Less than 10 minutes later the call came through about a serious assault near the Carnival procession. Our engineer was in the loo and the camera operator and I dropped everything, ran to the helicopter, both got in via the starboard side doors and swiftly got airborne. We were almost immediately stood down from the urgent call and were told to patrol the Carnival again. Things were quiet so the camera operator played with his new Heli-Tele toy. I had a small repeater screen in front of me which showed what was being relayed to the Police control room. The camera looked at our skids, panned upwards and then horror!! Both engine bay doors on the port side appeared on the screen and were latched open at 90 degrees to the fuselage. We were transmitting that image to the control room. I gingerly returned to Battersea Heliport. Here the engineer told us he had opened the two upwind engine bay doors to aid cooling before the next start.

Needless to say a no coffee and biscuits interview took place afterwards. Pre-flight, what pre-flight! That was the last time I allowed any job to take precedent over a thorough pre-flight inspection.

[boing]

No they shouldn't. The other pilots should be properly trained, tested and disciplined.

This is NOT a game, repeat NOT a game, lives are at risk.If you can't or don't want to do your job properly find another job.

The very suggestion that Captains should face an increased workload because the training centre can't teach people to do a proper walkaround is ludicrous.
.

[4mastacker]

...... I was once told that the only incidence of a four engined aircraft suffering a double engine failure was as a result of the flight engineer cocking things up, but I have no details and couldn't possibly comment............................

ExSp33db1rd,

This one??

XV109 two engine landing - 8 December 1988

On this day XV109 was tasked to retrieve a load of passengers from Gardermoen, Norway, when the Hercules that was supposed to fly them back went u/s. The flight was planned from Gardermoen via Leuchars to Brize Norton. At Leuchars, after delivering the passengers, during the turnaround one of the tires was seen to be damaged, but 'gethomeitis' and some bad decision making caused the aircraft to depart for Brize shortly after.

Over Birmingham a large bang was heard from the wheel well. The damaged tire had exploded and the debris from this took out the fuel lines to two of the engines and the hydraulics on the lefthand side. Also, because of the fuel valve selections that are made to balance the fuel load in such a situation, all of the 15.000 pounds of fuel in the port wing disappeared down the damaged valve cluster in the main wheel well, leaving the aircraft low on fuel during the approach. It landed without further incident at East Midlands though.

I believe there are some posts covering this incident in the Mil Forum over on TOP.

[Pontius Navigator]

Surprised Alison hasn't popped up here.

"Port up, starboard down, all up, all down, full left, full right"

Remember one incident, not sure if it was inevitable on a walk around. We had high pressure air to start the engines. There was enough to start all four at once and also a single engine. We started; pow fizz puft. Tried again, same result.

Small voice (me) to crew chief, is there any air? If course it had been missed in the BF.

[Alisoncc]

Surprised Alison hasn't popped up here.

She's been busy ensuring we are good for another year.

I've picked up that the engine cowlings were not latched.

How difficult is it to have a microswitch on such items so that if a circuit is broken it shows a warning light?

Switch itself no hassle, combined with wiring to connect all said microswitches equals significant increase in potential fasle alarms.

[ExSp33db1rd]

4Mastacker, no, not that one, it was "in House" i.e. BOAC VC-10 or the BEA holiday charter outfit of the time using ex.BOAC 707's. I believe an engine failed and the F/Eng. shut down a good one, which of course could be re-started, it probably never got much publicity, but the BEA pilot who told me about it was trying to prove that F/Eng's were more of a distraction than a help - in his opinion.

[ExSp33db1rd]

ExAscot

I could not see a problem with that decision.

I might agree. Similarly we had a 707 Capt. out of Anchorage across the Pole to London. Very shortly into the Arctic Area Of Compass Unreliability, and having switched to Grid Navigation and Gyro steering, they suspected a faulty compass, but with only 2 special gyro compasses fitted for the Polar route, which one ? He got the Nav. to take a Sun shot, then calculate the Grid Heading that they should be flying, and he adjusted both gyros to that heading and carried on. 20 minutes later, with an obvious discrepancy between the two gyros, he repeated the exercise, and did so every 20 minutes until they reached an area where the gyros were switched back to Magnetic North seeking values, which proved that the F/O compass was faulty.

When the tea and biscuitless interview took place, and he was criticised for not turning back to Anchorage as per S.O.P.'s he said " I knew where we were at the time of the initial failure, we were on track and had good Nav. aids, the Sun moves at 15 deg / hour, so at the start of every 20 minute leg I ordered a new Astro heading check and was then flying the correct heading, and at the end of each 20 min. leg the most I would have been off heading would have been 5 deg. and maybe none if indeed I was actually following the accurate gyro. Had I turned around and tried to find my way back to PANC I would have been fuxxxxd. QED " He was an ex- Coastal Command skipper and of course had therefore had nav. training.

I understand the theory but not sure I would have had the courage !

[Slasher]

No they shouldn't. The other pilots should be properly trained, tested and disciplined.

This is NOT a game, repeat NOT a game, lives are at risk.If you can't or don't want to do your job properly find another job.

The very suggestion that Captains should face an increased workload because the training centre can't teach people to do a proper walkaround is ludicrous.

Boing I'm not insinuating that all F/Os are incompetent. I don't mind 'em doing transit walkarounds after I tell them to report anything that doesn't look normal. It's just that after the first occurrence I said bugger it - it's MY ship and MY arse. So I did every initial acceptance walkaround from then on. I didn't care whether the copilot was a 20,000h check captain or a 21yo kid with 200.

I never imposed my actions to my fellow captains but have had discussions with 'em over a few drinks. I did raise it in writing to the Fleet office though.

I've picked up that the engine cowlings were not latched.

How difficult is it to have a microswitch on such items so that if a circuit is broken it shows a warning light?

Switch itself no hassle, combined with wiring to connect all said microswitches equals significant increase in potential fasle alarms.

Correct.

[Rwy in Sight]

I don't mind 'em doing transit walkarounds after I tell them to report anything that doesn't look normal. It's just that after the first occurrence I said bugger it - it's MY ship and MY arse. So I did every initial acceptance walkaround from then on. I didn't care whether the copilot was a 20,000h check captain or a 21yo kid with 200.

I never imposed my actions to my fellow captains but have had discussions with 'em over a few drinks. I did raise it in writing to the Fleet office though.

Why do you need to tell them to report anything unusual - I thought that was the point of any walk-around? Unless the other option is to find the turn-around engineer and have them fix it. Very impressed on not trusting a check - captain.

Also nice on not imposing your actions unofficially but going through the proper channel.

[Ex-Ascot]

Thank you 4M that's the one. I couldn't find it. I was sure he went into BZN though. I must have it wrong. They fitted steel plates in the undercarriage bays after that, to protect the fuel lines.

I had also forgotten about the dodgy tyre being questioned before departure. I have a feeling the Flt Eng told the Capt that it would be OK. Still the Capt's responsibility of course.

[Slasher]

I don't mind 'em doing transit walkarounds after I tell them to report anything that doesn't look normal.

Why do you need to tell them to report anything unusual - I thought that was the point of any walk-around?

RiS I might be splitting hairs but there's a difference between "something that doesn't look normal" and "something unusual". It's not normal to see a cowl not perfectly secure, a speedbrake panel sticking slightly up, a slat not perfectly retracted nor a small dent in the nose (could affect ASI indications).

What's unusual could be one aileron or elev not drooping (usually residual hyd press), or a naked hostie reclining in the engine inlet getting her picture took. These can be unusual but not something that doesn't look normal.

[TheGreenGoblin]

I know a corporate jet pilot who flies for a wealthy Europe based Russian businessman who does contract work for Gazprom. They often fly to sites, in Siberia in the summer, which are remote, very humid and midge infested. Many of these sites have only primitive airfields and many of these do not have have pressurized refueling systems that necessitates refueling from the port on top of the wing.

As Captain this chap had had a number of issues with the refueling process, including close calls in Russia, where water contaminated or dirty Jet A was about to be used by hapless ground staff, so he insisted on managing the whole refueling process personally. After one long flight from the UK he arrived at his destination in Siberia, which was sweltering in the summer heat and humidity and he elected to refuel immediately after dropping his boss off. As is his wont he climbed onto the top of the wing and immediately slipped on the sheet of ice that had formed on the recently cold soaked wing in the humid air and managed to catch his ankle in the gap between the wing and the flap resulting in a very nasty compound fracture necessitating some time in the primitive hospital in Russian and a long convalescence back home. He now sends his co-pilot out onto the wing while he directs the operation from the ground when in Russia.