B-17 down in the States

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#21 Post by Boac » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:07 am

It's a pdf, Slasher. You should be able to open and save.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#22 Post by Slasher » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:54 pm

I tried Boac using iPhone, W10, W7 and XP all to no avail and using various browsers. You have any luck?

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#23 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:00 pm

It downloads OK for me.
Could attach a copy if I had an email address.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#24 Post by Slasher » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:07 pm

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:00 pm
It downloads OK for me.
Could attach a copy if I had an email address.
Slasherfilth@yahoo.com Fox. Much obliged. I know it looks weird but it keeps scammers away thinking I must be one myself. Or a NY rapper or pimp.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#25 Post by k3k3 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:11 pm

It worked for me on W10, just click on the download symbol top right and select save.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#26 Post by Fox3WheresMyBanana » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:18 pm

Done

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#27 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:50 pm

Thank you to Mr Fox for helping Captain Slasher out. I am glad folks are finding that manual interesting.
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#28 Post by Mrs Ex-Ascot » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:59 pm

And thank you Mr Green Goblin for an interesting pdf which I finally managed to read on my new smartphone after downloading the appropriate app. :)
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#29 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:57 pm

A pleasure Mrs Ex-Ascot.
Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Not counting the B-17 taken out by a 31kt nuke in Nevada in 1951, since that was intentional ;)))
The aircraft involved was a 74-year-old Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress, military serial number 44-83575 (variant B-17G-85-DL) with civilian registration N93012.[2] The aircraft was painted as a representation of a different B-17G,[3] the 91st Bomb Group's Nine-O-Nine, with military serial number 42-31909 (variant B-17G-30-BO), which had been scrapped shortly after World War II at Kingman, Arizona.[4] During its original military career, the plane operated as an Air-Sea Rescue aircraft until 1952, when it was reassigned to the Air Force Special Weapons Command for use as a specimen in weapons-effects testing. In this role, it was subjected to three nuclear explosions as part of Operation Tumbler–Snapper. The aircraft was purchased as scrap in 1965 for a price of US$269 (equivalent to $2,139 in 2018); being in relatively good condition, it was restored to airworthy condition for use as a water bomber over the course of ten years, entering service in 1977.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bo ... ress_crash

A very good synopsis of events in the Wikipedia link. That aircraft has had an eventful history!
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#30 Post by Stoneboat » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:42 pm

The lady mentions it in the vid I posted, that the airplane had been involved in a runway overrun in 1987 in Pennsylvania. It was at Beaver Valley Airport near Pittsburgh, where I crawled over it one afternoon while they were awaiting repairs. They had performed at an airshow, and on departure for home base had gone off the runway.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#31 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:50 am

In 2014 Plane and Pilot magazine interviewed the Captain of the B-17G Ernest “Mac” McCauley about the Collings Foundation ethos and what is was like to fly the B-17. McCauley notes the aircraft's skittishness in crosswinds... it is worth noting that McCauley had over 5000 hours on the B-17, more than any other man that flew the beast.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/articl ... Zm3v25FxPY

I sincerely hope the Foundation learns whatever lessons that need to be learned and is allowed to move on and keep flying and educating people.
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#32 Post by Ex-Ascot » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:21 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:50 am
In 2014 Plane and Pilot magazine interviewed the Captain of the B-17G Ernest “Mac” McCauley about the Collings Foundation ethos and what is was like to fly the B-17. McCauley notes the aircraft's skittishness in crosswinds... it is worth noting that McCauley had over 5000 hours on the B-17, more than any other man that flew the beast.

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/articl ... Zm3v25FxPY

I sincerely hope the Foundation learns whatever lessons that need to be learned and is allowed to move on and keep flying and educating people.
If I recall from the ATC recording the wind was calm.

I do not suppose that these vintage aircraft have to have black boxes fitted for certification do they? Tricky for a FDR but easy for a CVR.
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#33 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:32 am

Ex-Ascot wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:21 am

If I recall from the ATC recording the wind was calm.

I do not suppose that these vintage aircraft have to have black boxes fitted for certification do they? Tricky for a FDR but easy for a CVR.
Yes, as you say, there is little evidence to make one think that a crosswind was a material factor in this off-runway landing excursion and crash. They had clearly lost power , and maybe even an engine, and landed short, collided with the ILS equipment and subsequently impacted the deicing farm.

I raised the issue ref. crosswinds prompted by Stoneboat's post about that aircraft's previous take off accident which was crosswind related.

It seems that having a FDR/CVR on a commercial passenger carrying aircraft of the size of a B-17G would certainly be an option that the FAA might consider. I don't think it would be viable on the P51 and some of the other aircraft in their collection though.
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#34 Post by Slasher » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:58 am

Fox3WheresMyBanana wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:18 pm
Done
Received and replied. Ta mate. 👍🏻

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#35 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:37 am

The NTSB issued its preliminary report on October 15. During the flight, the pilot had reported that a magneto on No. 4 engine was running rough. The NTSB reported that the propeller blades of No. 3 engine were near the feathered position and the propeller blades of No. 4 engine were in the feathered position. The aircraft had landed with the flaps in the retracted position
NTSB Preliminary Report.

Inadvertent feathering of the wrong prop or a double engine problem? Whatever the case, with two engines out on the same side their directional goose was cooked.

No flaps?
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#36 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:12 am

The Collings Foundation's accident couldn't have come at a worse time from an FAA rules exemption request perspective...
Timing, as they say, is everything and the tragic crash of the Collings Foundation B-17 in Connecticut earlier this month came a month after it submitted its application for exemptions to various FAA rules that allow it to fly its collection of aircraft and carry paying passengers to help cover expenses. The group is now calling on its supporters to leave comments on the Federal Register notice to let the FAA know how important they think it is that the historic aircraft keep providing Living History Flight Experiences. “We need to let federal agencies know that the LHFE program is important to you and other American citizens as an educational tool,” the organization said in its online appeal.
Collings request for rule exemptions from the FAA

https://s30121.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploa ... making.pdf
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#37 Post by llondel » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Education also includes teaching people that flying old aircraft is more dangerous than modern ones, sometimes by practical example.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#38 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:10 pm

llondel wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:49 pm
Education also includes teaching people that flying old aircraft is more dangerous than modern ones, sometimes by practical example.
As a supporter of the Collings Foundation's ethos of trying to keep people flying in these vintage aircraft and contributing to the dissemination of historical knowledge to the public outside the context of static museums, albeit within the context of operational practices and FAR's, that allow for the fact that there is a greater risk to the public in this practice, than in modern commercial aircraft, I do worry that the Foundation may be hit by a slew of litigation that will make their operation uninsurable in the future thereby curtailing the whole idea!.
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Re: B-17 down in the States

#39 Post by fin » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:52 am

TheGreenGoblin wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:10 pm
llondel wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:49 pm
Education also includes teaching people that flying old aircraft is more dangerous than modern ones, sometimes by practical example.
As a supporter of the Collings Foundation's ethos of trying to keep people flying in these vintage aircraft and contributing to the dissemination of historical knowledge to the public outside the context of static museums, albeit within the context of operational practices and FAR's, that allow for the fact that there is a greater risk to the public in this practice, than in modern commercial aircraft, I do worry that the Foundation may be hit by a slew of litigation that will make their operation uninsurable in the future thereby curtailing the whole idea!.
I really hate that what you say here is almost the first thing I thought when I saw the extent of the crash. The risk-averse lawyers and nanny-state govt jobsworths have really done it for a lot of what gave us pleasure fifty years ago.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

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Re: B-17 down in the States

#40 Post by TheGreenGoblin » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:11 am

fin wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:52 am
I really hate that what you say here is almost the first thing I thought when I saw the extent of the crash. The risk-averse lawyers and nanny-state govt jobsworths have really done it for a lot of what gave us pleasure fifty years ago.
Fin we can only work in sense and work to make it not so... With respect Sir.
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